Sherlock Fandom - The Good, the Bad And the WTF?

[Fantasy Lover]

Okay, I'm going to say something which I said in the TJLC thread: countless people analysed this, some of them studied to do something in the film industry. So, when some people who studied for this are saying "this is what is going to happen." Are they wrong? Are their textbooks wrong? Are their teachers wrong? Or are they a bunch of lairs who pulled a cruel prank?

 

I'm sorry, but I refuse to believe that. LSIT and Rebekah don't seem like the kind of people who would do that.

[Arcadia]

I don't disagree with either of you. I'm just wary of rubbing salt in their wounds.

 

Boton, on the issue of the "fourth wall" -- exactly. Shippers have a right to ship, but I still contend that their interpretation is not, cannot, be as valid as that of the creator. I've read and understood the arguments to the contrary, but I don't buy it. To me, that's just people being too stubbon to admit they got it wrong.

 

But the people who have been misled by self-appointed gurus ... ouch. Let's give 'em some time to heal.

[Arcadia]

Okay, I'm going to say something which I said in the TJLC thread: countless people analysed this, some of them studied to do something in the film industry. So, when some people who studied for this are saying "this is what is going to happen." Are they wrong? Are their textbooks wrong? Are their teachers wrong? Or are they a bunch of lairs who pulled a cruel prank?

 

I'm sorry, but I refuse to believe that. LSIT and Rebekah don't seem like the kind of people who would do that.

They were wrong. It's that simple. It happens. No need to conjecture another conspiracy.

 

I hope people aren't dumping on them too. I imagine they feel cruddy enough already without others adding to it.

 

 

ETA ... I've studied a bit of film history and techniques myself. Not very much, but a tiny bit ... enough to be familiar with the types of analysis and language that film texts use. And this is what I do know; just because a text, or a teacher, says that A always means B, doesn't make it true. It's their opinion. Find another text or another teacher, and you'll find a different opinion.

 

Add to that ... artists tend to fight against established ways of saying things. They tend to try and find new meanings using the same tools, or find new tools. So even if, at one point, an author portrays a man sipping a cup of tea to indicate the man is gay, that doesn't mean that every author is using the same code. They might have a man sipping tea, but have recoded the metaphor to mean something else ... in their work. It doesn't invalidate the other author's code, but the other author's code doesn't ... can't ... apply to the new work.

 

And that's yet another reason I keep coming out and saying that the creator's interpretations carry more weight than the people receiving the text. Of course, if the creator is dead (or silent for some other reason ), it's hard to find out what their interpretation really is. But in this case, Moftiss quite clearly, and on more than one occasion, came out and said TJLC didn't exist. I don't know who LSIT is, but Rebekah chose to believe they were lying. It turned out she was wrong. That's got to be really hard for her to accept, I imagine, but it doesn't make her a bad person. She just got caught up and swept away, and couldn't get out of the current in time to avoid the rocks. I hope people aren't out there trying to make her feel worse. They probably are, though ... that's what people do. :(

[J.P.]

The comparison I will use is a kind of hard and a size too big, but it's the first thing that comes to my mind.

I the time of national socialism in Germany, many very wise people found very wise, scientific reasons why Jews are inferior. With many research that was supporting their theory. The same was for the inferiority of people of African descent. Inferiority of women. The same for gay people being sick.

 

Those POVs weren't accepted because someone just said so. There was an apparent evidence presented to prove them.

To be honest, I'm afraid you can find evidence of almost everything, if you only work hard enough.

 

You not believing it doesn't change a fact that JL didn't happen. The makers said so. They were called liars. They weren't lying. You should hear on them and not to people who clearly had an agenda.

[Fantasy Lover]

 

 

They were wrong. It's that simple. It happens. No need to conjecture another conspiracy.

 

I hope people aren't dumping on them too. I imagine they feel cruddy enough already without others adding to it.

Unfortunately, people are very negative to them. Poor things.

[Caya]

Hey, no need to go Godwin on the thread, there are plenty of areas where experts in the field went oh so wrong publicly. Take it away, Rinkworks:

 

There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home." -- Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977

 

"This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us." -- Western Union internal memo, 1876

 

"Who the hell wants to hear actors talk?" -- H. M. Warner, Warner Brothers, 1927

 

"Stocks have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau." -- Irving Fisher, Professor of Economics, Yale University, 1929

 

"The bomb will never go off. I speak as an expert in explosives." -- Admiral William Leahy, U.S. Atomic Bomb Project

 

To err is human and all that. ;)

 

 

[Arcadia]

Oh, Caya ...

[J.P.]

Martina, I was just lazy. Can't keep up. I need a handbook how to have a live in this fandom.

[Arcadia]

 

They were wrong. It's that simple. It happens. No need to conjecture another conspiracy.

 

I hope people aren't dumping on them too. I imagine they feel cruddy enough already without others adding to it.

Unfortunately, people are very negative to them. Poor things.

 

 

Oh dear. Unfortunately, it doesn't surprise me. There are always people who feel they have to pile on when someone else is down. Makes you despair about humanity, sometimes. When I do, though, I just try to remind myself that the mean people are usually in the minority, and I try to follow the people who stand up to them instead.

[Van Buren Supernova]

The way I see it, exclusively in here though, both (or more) sides have justifications and reasons.

 

A work belongs to the creators, and it's up to them to go whichever directions whether it's preferable by certain audience or not. There is no way to make everyone happy, and it's not the way to demand them to.

On the other side, some feel betrayed because they feel they had been led on. (We can argue whether this 'leading on' exists on not forever, some just see what others don't see, and some don't see what others see. That was why I gave up the TJLC thread because the bridge is not there yet.)

 

I admit sometimes it's very difficult to see the reasonings, sometimes it's so hard to grasp and some are utterly ridiculous. I am honest, I can't sugarcoat it. That falls into what J.P said, you can find prove in anything if you want to.

However, bear with me (frigging English and grammar :p), those little snippets, those bad theories are just small representation, there are indeed some good theories out there. There are reasonable analysis and JL-ers. Too bad we are always only as strong as the weakest link. Few bad seeds, taint them all, if we are unwilling to see beyond that.

Again, this happens everywhere. Most people are too quick to stereotype. Everyone probably know at least one person in their lives who says Muslim=terrorist, priest=paedophile, Mexican=rapist (see, told you you know at least one), Asian=small d*ck, and tons of them, because human are stupid.

 

So. The way I see it, I don't think moffiss 'lie' on whatever base they are accused, and I think they don't deserve to be treated that way. No.

But they are not exactly innocent (although most likely it's not intentional) as what Fantasy pointed out, that the gay jokes hurt. I am guilty for laughing with them back then, because what did I know, I failed to see that it could be very offensive if that is the struggle that one has been going through all his/her life. As I recall, there were countless of gay remarks, jokes and accusations from people around me since long time ago. I was indifferent and brushed them off as bad harmless jokes, but now I see, if only I looked at it from that point of view, how hurtful it could be. So yes, they are guilty, but probably they didn't mean it to be hurtful, they were just as stupid as me.

 

Also, some might say that one need not to be so sensitive but if you have been prejudiced all your life, patience for that is short, and I don't blame them.

 

So, I'm not sure how to say it and whether I get my point across. I like this place because it protects me and I want others to feel the same.

Believe me, if someone is fishing for attention or just throwing tantrum to stir the pot, I'm confident I can see through that and would probably be one of the first to tell them off. But it's different with genuinely hurt that I saw with Fantasy's, and probably many others who don't dare to voice them out. Although yes, there are probably better ways than suggesting us to f* ourselves (please don't, I hate that :p).

 

We can be different, but we can be civil. We probably won't accept each other views for years, but do we ever have to? As long as we understand there are other ways to look at it, try to move away from any stereotyping because regardless where you and I come from, what we are and what we believe, at the end of the day we look about the same with Billy on Sherlock's mantelpiece, so why not?

 

I'd borrow an infamous quote from Breaking Bad :p, it's not a threat like in the series, it's just... whatever you want to make it.

In this sensitive topic, let's..

 

"Tread lightly."

[Arcadia]

We need a "love this" button.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Amen!! Or at least the ability to "like" something more than once

[Fantasy Lover]

 

 

So. The way I see it, I don't think moffiss 'lie' on whatever base they are accused, and I think they don't deserve to be treated that way. No.

But they are not exactly innocent (although most likely it's not intentional) as what Fantasy pointed out, that the gay jokes hurt. I am guilty for laughing with them back then, because what did I know, I failed to see that it could be very offensive if that is the struggle that one has been going through all his/her life. As I recall, there were countless of gay remarks, jokes and accusations from people around me since long time ago. I was indifferent and brushed them off as bad harmless jokes, but now I see, if only I looked at it from that point of view, how hurtful it could be. So yes, they are guilty, but probably they didn't mean it to be hurtful, they were just as stupid as me.

 

Also, some might say that one need not to be so sensitive but if you have been prejudiced all your life, patience for that is short, and I don't blame them.

 

So, I'm not sure how to say it and whether I get my point across. I like this place because it protects me and I want others to feel the same.

Believe me, if someone is fishing for attention or just throwing tantrum to stir the pot, I'm confident I can see through that and would probably be one of the first to tell them off. But it's different with genuinely hurt that I saw with Fantasy's, and probably many others who don't dare to voice them out. Although yes, there are probably better ways than suggesting us to f* ourselves (please don't, I hate that :p).

I'm sorry I behaved like that. But mofftiss DEFINITELY riled us, they said things like: doing something groundbreaking and historical and love conquers all. HOW does this not apply to Johnlock? Now I'm supposed to believe it applies to Sian's performance? Tatiana did that the past four years!

[Carol the Dabbler]

Well, of course that description could have referred to on-screen Johnlock. But it could also have referred to any number of other things. As it turns out, Moftiss were referring to one of the other possibilities, and since it was their own work, of course it was "groundbreaking," etc. Television producers always talk like that.

 

I do think the Johnlockers and TJLCers have accomplished one thing, though. It finally seems to have sunk in that their "jokes" were being taken seriously by many fans. The last "I'm not gay!" that I can recall offhand was in "Empty Hearse."

[Arcadia]

Well, in the case of the "groundbreaking and historical", it's my understanding that it was Amanda who said that ... and she doesn't speak for Moftiss anymore than I do. If I recall, Mark or Steven even tried to play down that statement. But it's very, very hard, once something you don't want said is out there, to unsay it. Even well-meaning people will miss the retraction, and hear only the "unapproved" version. But it's my understanding that's exactly what happened here ... Amanda was a little too enthusiastic, and Moftiss tried but largely failed to tell everyone that her remarks were to be taken with a grain of salt.

Edited January 25, 2017 by Arcadia
Removed S4 spoiler

[bedelia1984]

Well, of course that description could have referred to on-screen Johnlock. But it could also have referred to any number of other things. As it turns out, Moftiss were referring to one of the other possibilities, and since it was their own work, of course it was "groundbreaking," etc. Television producers always talk like that.

 

I do think the Johnlockers and TJLCers have accomplished one thing, though. It finally seems to have sunk in that their "jokes" were being taken seriously by many fans. The last "I'm not gay!" that I can recall offhand was in "Empty Hearse."

 

Not to be awkward, but having just watched TSOT, we do have an "I don't know how those rumours got started!" in there.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Well, yeah, now that you mention it.  But unless somebody has another counter-example, we've now gone five episodes without any such dialog.

[bedelia1984]

Well, yeah, now that you mention it. But unless somebody has another counter-example, we've now gone five episodes without any such dialog.

I would agree, with the caveat that the plot hasn't given the guys much bromance time within the span of those episodes- the jokes are inappropriate to the time in TAB, and there are other things standing in the way in the next ones. I possibly could see them going there again if the script allowed for it, if only because I don't know that the writers actively avoid issues just to avoid stirring people up, if anything the reverse could be true. I could easily imagine a scene with John, Sherlock and Rosamund in the future where they gag is that they are seen as a couple by others.

Edited January 22, 2017 by Carol the Dabbler
Spoiler moved to "Final Problem" thread

[Carol the Dabbler]

Sorry, Bedelia -- you made some good points in your response to Arcadia, but it was spoilery as all get-out (far too spoilery for a mere spoiler box), so I moved it to the "Final Problem" thread.

 

I agree with you that recent episodes have not been conducive to gay jokes, but I believe I also heard one of the Moftisses say that they thought there had already been enough of that. So I think we've probably heard the last of them. (Barring any irresistible opportunities, perhaps -- though I hope they can restrain themselves.)

 

By the way, if my understanding of the term "bromance" is accurate, then "Final Problem" was actually full of it. I can't give you any examples in this thread of course, but given the meaning of a super-close male friendship, I think you can easily provide your own examples.

[bedelia1984]

I want to say so many things about the bromance in season 4 but all of them are spoilery! Will move this bit across.

[Arcadia]

I agree with you that recent episodes have not been conducive to gay jokes, but I believe I also heard one of the Moftisses say that they thought there had already been enough of that.

 

I believe I heard the same thing, in the TEH commentary.

 

 

[J.P.]

I'm awaiting a second meltdown in ca. 1,5 hours. I only wonder who they blame this time.

 

[Fantasy Lover]

I'm blaming the fans this time

[J.P.]

It would be probably the greatest prank in the history of TV, and I would probably laugh myself to death. :D

 

But seriously, what story can they tell now, beside actually starting a "new era", with the more traditional Sherlock and Dr Watson?

[T.o.b.y]

Well, yeah, now that you mention it.  But unless somebody has another counter-example, we've now gone five episodes without any such dialog.

 

Unless you count Moriarty's remarks at the waterfall in The Abominable Bride... Which are, strictly speaking, just Sherlock making fun of himself.