Subtext Interpretation... What Do You See?

[Inge l-w]

Dear J.P., that is why I answered in two paragraphs, the second answers your query, I hope

[Arcadia]

I actually meant Inge's second line. Sorry for not being clear (again).

 

Same here...

 

 

Link found, I voted, good luck BC! (Although I'm not actually sure he appreciates it... )

[J.P.]

Why would I want to make him even more popular than he is already? It's counterproductive.

[Arcadia]

It's a reflex, I can't help it! :D

[J.P.]

We actually should vote for everybody else. The less popular he is the more is left for our bunch.

[Arcadia]

JP, I'm delighted shocked. That's so clever devious!

[Van Buren Supernova]

Why would I want to make him even more popular than he is already? It's counterproductive.

 

THIS.

When I first watched Sherlock, I thought I found hidden gem because it's almost unheard of in my circle.

When I told a friend, the reaction,"Is it because that Cumberbatch?" 

the other reaction,"You too? Seriously? Now I finally able to understand the phenomenon of Cumberbi*ch."

It broke my usual don't give attention to those who already has it. XD

 

Anyway, too much fame might also breaks Mr. Cumberbatch, I don't want him to be more self conscious, I like the happy-good humor-humble him now.

Or adored by even more people. He already has mine, what more does he need?

 

Yes, BLOODY SELFISH. Can't help it.

[Inge l-w]

Sorry, J.P. and any other who thinks like that!

The man made the cover of Time magazine, he has been chosen as one of the 100 most influential people on the whole planet.

Do you really think that a small-time award as this does anything more except boost his whole work, his choices and his image, which he has to sell in order to fuel the work?

You wouldn't like to be thought mediocre in your working field, neither would any of us, so why should this forum not put its support behind its favourite actor in this as in any other award which will boost his CV! Think of all the nice pictures for your collection from the possible awards ceremony.

Of course, if one wants to be SELFISH, as stated above, then do so, please! It's pointless, anyway.

[Van Buren Supernova]

Okay, joking aside,

actually my reason not to vote (or more accurately, not bother to vote) is the same with the reason why you are voting.

 

TIME's 100 most influential people is something, and I believe he is, proven by people actualy doing good deeds for his birthday present, which I find really nice.

 

But, no offense to Glamour (in fact, I used to own quite a number of them because I like the compact size to bring around when I was much younger and wanted to read something light - kindle or even internet was a luxury), but being a sexiest man voted by Glamour magazine readers might actually counter his image/CV.

 

I don't know him apart from what I read/see in the media, but I assume he is a serious actor and inspired to do serious/quality works and he does have talent and determination for it.

I assume some of the things that happened in Hamletgate are regretable and he might more or less relate it to his popularity from Sherlock (where neither the writers or himself expect that he would be viewed as heartrob at the beginning).

 

So I don't see that being crowned would be an advantage for him, I even assume it would hurt more than benefit him, and he would hate it, but he is mature and would take it as something fun, and take a positive side of it.

 

So yeah, whatever you choose.

Just saying that not voting doesn't necessary mean I don't support him.

 

 

Add: Oh ya, the Selfish part is still true too XD.

[J.P.]

I was through this kind of musings long ago, while witnessing a similar hype around a photography exhibition Viggo Mortensen made in Odense, Denmark in 2003.

 

I went, I saw (weeks after the opening though) and couldn't help asking myself if I like his work only because I like him.

 

I imagine it must be terrible for a serious artist of any kind, not to know if people are coming in masses and are enthusiastic because of the quality of works - or only because they get hormonal about the looks of the maker.

 

But we are OT again...

[Arcadia]

Not really, one of the subtexts of Sherlock is just how sexy he is! :D And why do we think he's sexy, anyway? And is Mary right ... is John a little bit sexy when he storms into the drug den? Why would that make him sexy?
 
These are deep, important questions, I think we owe it to ourselves to ponder them deeply and importantly... backed up with research of course...   ;) :P

[Inge l-w]

Absolutely, dear Arcadia! We're above all fans of his work (just finished watching Amazing Grace) and so as loyal fans of any person, club, group, we should show our support unconditionally. To paraphrase our favourite villain, that's what fans DO!

[Boton]

Not really, one of the subtexts of Sherlock is just how sexy he is! :D And why do we think he's sexy, anyway? And is Mary right ... is John a little bit sexy when he storms into the drug den? Why would that make him sexy?

 

These are deep, important questions, I think we owe it to ourselves to ponder them deeply and importantly... backed up with research of course...   ;) :P

 

Mary is so right about John when he storms into the drug den.  Between that and the one scene where he's sitting in his chair in 221B in just a dressing gown and shower-rumpled hair, and my goodness!  [fans self]

 

There was definitely one moment when I was reading the ACD canon when I looked up and realized that probably every Victorian woman (and not a few men) was hot for Sherlock Holmes.  I can't even point to the passage that drove it home for me, but that character is just so inherently sexy.  Maybe it has something to do with his aloofness - the fantasy that if you could just unleash that beast, what would it even be like?

 

[fans self again]

 

[fans self with greater vigor]

 

Is there something wrong with my AC?  It's getting awfully warm in here.   :D

[sittything]

I think the ship has already sailed for poor Cumberbatch.  Whether he likes it or not, the fame and fangirling has arrived and it's not going away, Glamour win or not.  The masses at the stage doors post-Hamlet are evidence enough of that.  Loo is a relative unknown, Gatiss even (most of my friends don't know who he is), but Cumberbatch... newp.

[Inge l-w]

Yes, exactly, fandoms being what they are, I abandoned Chris Hemsworth (and I have been reading Thor comics since school) to vote for Benedict just so that "Mr Grey" does not win the flipping thing two years running. Benedict has played much more colourful and interesting characters! As for fan girls, you should have seen the hordes of young female Asians and Russians at the convention in May.

Dear Boton, out of the 56 stories, the majority of his clients are women or directly involve the fate of young heiresses! Even poor Kate Whitney comes to him for help (Man with the Twisted Lip)!

[Arcadia]

 

Not really, one of the subtexts of Sherlock is just how sexy he is! :D And why do we think he's sexy, anyway? And is Mary right ... is John a little bit sexy when he storms into the drug den? Why would that make him sexy?

 

These are deep, important questions, I think we owe it to ourselves to ponder them deeply and importantly... backed up with research of course...   ;) :P

 

Mary is so right about John when he storms into the drug den.  Between that and the one scene where he's sitting in his chair in 221B in just a dressing gown and shower-rumpled hair, and my goodness!  [fans self]

 

There was definitely one moment when I was reading the ACD canon when I looked up and realized that probably every Victorian woman (and not a few men) was hot for Sherlock Holmes.  I can't even point to the passage that drove it home for me, but that character is just so inherently sexy.  Maybe it has something to do with his aloofness - the fantasy that if you could just unleash that beast, what would it even be like?

 

[fans self again]

 

[fans self with greater vigor]

 

Is there something wrong with my AC?  It's getting awfully warm in here.   :D

 

Thank you, Boton, for that deep and important insight, based, I am sure, on intense and rigorous research. You have raised the bar for the entire forum.

 

[Inge l-w]

Dear Arcadia, surely you mean Boton has raised "the IQ level" of the whole forum! :D

And here goes another (slightly) hi-jacked thread!

[Arcadia]

That too! :p

[SherlockedCAMPer]

Dear Arcadia, surely you mean Boton has raised "the IQ level" of the whole forum! :D

And here goes another (slightly) hi-jacked thread!

 

Hi-jack away.  oh wait, wrong thread

 

 

Now to get back to our previously schedule discussion on subtext.

 

 

 

Upon further review, I still don't see anything between Sherlock and John beyond a good, old-fashioned bromance.

 

 

There, now we're back on topic.

[joanneta1]

What I have always seen, especially in the stories, is a very deep bond of friendship, such as would naturally be created by people living through and surviving life-threatening situations, and it is just like Sherlock Holmes to drag, push, inveigle Dr Watson into all sorts of adventures.

In the modern version, this is very well expressed by Mycroft in SiP when he abducts the good doctor for the first time: 'with Sherlock Holmes you see the battlefield', so I always think of them as brothers in arms, although in the stories Holmes's masterfulness comes across much more forcefully. It is 'philia', the ancient Greek notion of 'whatever happens, I've got your back' from both of them.

[Boton]

What I have always seen, especially in the stories, is a very deep bond of friendship, such as would naturally be created by people living through and surviving life-threatening situations, and it is just like Sherlock Holmes to drag, push, inveigle Dr Watson into all sorts of adventures.

In the modern version, this is very well expressed by Mycroft in SiP when he abducts the good doctor for the first time: 'with Sherlock Holmes you see the battlefield', so I always think of them as brothers in arms, although in the stories Holmes's masterfulness comes across much more forcefully. It is 'philia', the ancient Greek notion of 'whatever happens, I've got your back' from both of them.

 

Totally agree.  And I just think that our modern society doesn't have quite the understanding of or visceral respect for philia, so it becomes tempting to reinterpret what we see as eros instead.

[jadpdr]

Oh, the six stages of Ancient Greek expression of feelings for another person of the same gender!

Concerning their complicated relationship, there's one thing I cannot fathom: why wasn't DI Lestrade invited to the stag night in the first place? He is seen in a pub enjoying a drink at the end of HLV, and he certainly enjoys a drink in SIB Christmas and in SoT. Did Sherlock, who pasted John's face on Da Vinci's Vitruvian man, have an elaborate plan to lure John into something before the wedding finalized things, and hence his precise calculations and his comment after the fact : "What a wasted opportunity", only to save face by talking about Tessa to cover up his slip of the tongue?

[Arcadia]

Maybe Lestrade was invited. But as we know he had to work that night ... fortunately for them or they may have spent more time in jail....   :p

[Inge l-w]

And they definitely belonged in the drunk tank, not in a cushy cell of their own, even though Dr Watson ended up on the floor anyway.

[T.o.b.y]

Oh, the six stages of Ancient Greek expression of feelings for another person of the same gender!

Concerning their complicated relationship, there's one thing I cannot fathom: why wasn't DI Lestrade invited to the stag night in the first place? He is seen in a pub enjoying a drink at the end of HLV, and he certainly enjoys a drink in SIB Christmas and in SoT. Did Sherlock, who pasted John's face on Da Vinci's Vitruvian man, have an elaborate plan to lure John into something before the wedding finalized things, and hence his precise calculations and his comment after the fact : "What a wasted opportunity", only to save face by talking about Tessa to cover up his slip of the tongue?

 

The way I see the stag night, Sherlock's main concern was that he might make a fool of himself (hence the efforts to keep the drinking under control) and he wasn't going to ask other people over to witness that. So of course he didn't invite any other friends of John's.

 

The "wasted opportunity" I think refers to the potentially interesting case of Tessa dating a "ghost" that he wasn't able to look into properly because of being drunk after all.

 

Still, every time I see the scene where he comes to Molly with his folder, my immature little brain giggles and whispers "dating advice". I love Molly's face throughout.

 

Somehow, it never occurred to me before other people pointed it out around here that there should have been more people along, even though I theoretically know what a stag night usually is. This particular one is just so much about only Sherlock and John... It seems like a kind of a goodbye-to-old-times ritual, just the two of them doing stupid reckless guy things once more before John marries and becomes a responsible adult, leaving Sherlock behind in eternal boyhood by himself.

 

And there does seem to be a kind of recognition strewn in somewhere that their friendship could have, might have, maybe, had the potential for something further. It's the only scene (or sequence of scenes) in the series where I see that actually acknowledged in some way. Not that I think anything intimate would have happened if Tessa hadn't walked in or that either character planned on or wished for anything like that, I just think the way it's all written goes beyond the usual joke mode into a murkier territory for the first and presumably only time in the series.

 

Because I can't shake this ridiculous habit of thinking about these characters as if they were real and assigning inner workings to them that they can't possibly have because they don't exist, I have this theory that John has never been really sure whether Sherlock is into women, men or nobody or both, and that he's always been the slightest bit worried against his better knowledge that Sherlock could in some way be in love with him. When he's drunk and arguably flirting during the game of "who am I", it's to me as if he's testing that theory - not a hundred percent intentionally, he's too inebriated for that, but on some half-conscious level only achieved by a lot of alcohol. And it goes straight over poor Sherlock's head, who I don't think has ever given the matter any thought at all.

 

Sherlock is just too clueless and uninterested where love is concerned to realize or care how the way he behaves around John could be (mis)interpreted. He doesn't know what is usually expected of a male best friend, what set of behaviors and expressions does and doesn't belong to that role, and I don't think he gives a damn, either. It's a huge step for him to have any kind of friend.