Subtext Interpretation... What Do You See?

[Arcadia]

Wow. I would never have thought of that -- not much of a fan of psychoanalysis, generally. But now that you say it ... could be. Or maybe, it's more what Sherlock fears he will become if he allows the id to surface? Interesting then that he seems to regard psychotropic drugs as largely harmless, given their propensity for lowering one's inhibitions. But then again, it's been pretty well demonstrated all along that Sherlock lies to himself, hasn't it?

 

 

[T.o.b.y]

 

Yep! All fine and dandy, but is TJLC rearing its head yet again, or is Morirarty in his mind palace what they tend to call OTP?

 

You know, I think they are using sexual subtext with mind-palace Moriarty, but I don't read the Sherlock and Moriarty interactions as an indication that either one is interested in or turned on by the other in real life. Further comment in spoiler box, just in case.

 

 

 

I think Moriarty represents sexuality and sensuality in general in TAB, which is something that truly does alarm Sherlock.  I don't think he fears an attraction to Moriarty so much as he fears the idea of literally "feeling" one's way through life.  Moriarty represents that; he fellates a gun barrel, for heaven's sake, which is the complete opposite approach to Sherlock trying to live by "caring is not an advantage." I think it's perfectly possible in TAB for Moriarty to be an intensely sexual creature that is a buried part of Sherlock's psyche without this being a statement on real life attraction or relationships.

 

 

 

Or,

Moriarty is hyper-sexual inside Sherlock's mind because he made a few actually pretty mild (and probably ironic) advances in real life, and as you say, Sherlock really is disturbed by sex, so that is something he associates with Moriarty and it got blown up inside his brain, as lots of things did.

 

 

In the very beginning, I do think Sherlock found Moriarty fascinating. During most of The Great Game, he acted like someone with a new crush. But I don't think he considered going to bed with whoever his opponent was, he was more attracted to the excitement he or she provided.

[Carol the Dabbler]

In the very beginning, I do think Sherlock found Moriarty fascinating. During most of The Great Game, he acted like someone with a new crush. But I don't think he considered going to bed with whoever his opponent was, he was more attracted to the excitement he or she provided.

 

Such as Irene.  Yeah, I think so too.

[Van Buren Supernova]

Is it me only who think that the writers are shutting down JL by making the characters said

impertinent and offensive?

[T.o.b.y]

Is it me only who think that the writers are shutting down JL by making the characters said

impertinent and offensive?

 

 

I don't think there is anything to "shut down", because they never seriously encouraged the idea that the two main characters could be or become a romantic couple on the show... And as for what fans do with the characters, that's beyond anyone's control (and rightly so, I'd say).

 

My impression was always that Sherlock considers the idea of him having sexual relations with anyone

"impertinent and offensive".

 

 

[Van Buren Supernova]

 

I don't think there is anything to "shut down", because they never seriously encouraged the idea that the two main characters could be or become a romantic couple on the show... And as for what fans do with the characters, that's beyond anyone's control (and rightly so, I'd say).

 

My impression was always that Sherlock considers the idea of him having sexual relations with anyone

"impertinent and offensive".

 

 

Better still then.

 

Selfishly, I don't really want to see him get involved with anyone that way.

I like him like he is and it should be fine.

I'm bored watching everything else that eventually moves on to 'normal' direction; attraction, relationship, family etc.

When I said I like it as it is, it includes Molly, Irene Adler current relationship. It doesn't mean that he has to be alone and he is not human. On the contrary, explore, what's going through his head, his mind, which is what they are doing so far.

 

So unselfishly, I don't want him to get hurt. 

If Sherlock is physically hurt, he could and had fight back from the edge. But if his heart was broken again, he would seal himself to no end, self-harm, and good grief I don't know what would happen.

 

And I strongly believe they will break his heart in Series 4.

It will be compelling to watch if they handle it right, and I want to watch it. I have good faith in them, but I'm weary because the creators somehow know how to push my buttons.

 

After the episodes, I might need to check my pulse and heart rate, don my straight-jacket and humming in the corner.

[Arcadia]

Is it me only who think that the writers are shutting down JL by making the characters said

impertinent and offensive?

 

 

No, I had the same thought.

 

 

Is it me only who think that the writers are shutting down JL by making the characters said

impertinent and offensive?

 

 

I don't think there is anything to "shut down", because they never seriously encouraged the idea that the two main characters could be or become a romantic couple on the show... And as for what fans do with the characters, that's beyond anyone's control (and rightly so, I'd say).

 

My impression was always that Sherlock considers the idea of him having sexual relations with anyone

"impertinent and offensive".

 

Never "seriously" encouraged, but they certainly played with it a lot, I don't blame people for getting ideas. But I have had the distinct impression lately that they would prefer everyone to back off.

 

But you're quite right, and really, since when did someone's sex life or lack thereof become anyone's business, is what I would guess Sherlock is thinking.

[sfmpco]

There was at least one interview recently where BC blanched at the anticipated "bromance" word coming at him.  I think he's a bit tired of it, but perhaps it's more that he's never been particularly fond of  the Johnlock fanfiction and fan art showing his body as Sherlock doing things he would never do (as he has said).  it has to be a little disturbing.

[Van Buren Supernova]

There was at least one interview recently where BC blanched at the anticipated "bromance" word coming at him.  I think he's a bit tired of it, but perhaps it's more that he's never been particularly fond of  the Johnlock fanfiction and fan art showing his body as Sherlock doing things he would never do (as he has said).  it has to be a little disturbing.

I guess I have to be grateful that I don't have enough time to know any of those then.

[sfmpco]

 

There was at least one interview recently where BC blanched at the anticipated "bromance" word coming at him.  I think he's a bit tired of it, but perhaps it's more that he's never been particularly fond of  the Johnlock fanfiction and fan art showing his body as Sherlock doing things he would never do (as he has said).  it has to be a little disturbing.

I guess I have to be grateful that I don't have enough time to know any of those then.

 

 

I have one person on my Twitter feed who loves to repost Johnlock porn.  One of these days I will block her, but generally I block the people she reposts.    I don't need or want to see porn or any kind on my Twitter feed.

[T.o.b.y]

:-D I wouldn't want porn on my social media either if I used any, and I don't envy the poor actors who keep being confronted with their fans' overactive imaginations.

 

Still, I cannot but feel slightly sympathetic towards the part of the fandom that really, really wants this pairing to happen. I know what it's like to become really deeply emotionally invested in a a fictional relationship, the chemistry here is so amazing and the line between romance and friendship is so blurry in this particular case, well... It's understandable, is all I'm saying. Plus for some, it's also a (potential) representation issue.

 

I just wish certain ideas and images were distributed a little more discreetly and with a little more consideration for who would want to know / see and who really wouldn't. And I do not mean just slash here.

[J.P.]

Just listening to the 3 Patch Podcast - the part Elephant in the Room: Responding to Sherlock and it amazes me how serious people treat the (their!) Subtext.

Can it be that we are the only forum in the universe, that is not totally flooded with ships and Johnlock-ey stuff?

[Van Buren Supernova]

Can it be that we are the only forum in the universe, that is not totally flooded with ships and Johnlock-ey stuff?

Seriously?

No wonder I knew I found the right place.

[Inge l-w]

Dear J.P. , most of the active ones are not telling, but except for Cumbercowley and ma petite Aurelie (Aurelie.vanimpe), I suspect that we're a majority of Generation X, with a few Ys (and Aurelie is a fan of TJLC, anyway, I comb through Ao3 for acceptably written stories to bring to her attention in the Hangman game.) But the Moriarty line about eloping together fanned the fires of TJLC.

@J.P. Thanks for the podcast link, it includes an interview with Atlin Merrick, the source of a lot of laughs both in ff and Ao3, not to mention her tumblr account, which I follow: she's a JohnLocker through and through, but she can write well, and that is a skill to be admired!

Mental maturity helps a lot in avoiding obvious traps, although the Abominable episode has brought out some of my primal urges (like a teenager) concerning the creators.

[Arcadia]

Just listening to the 3 Patch Podcast - the part Elephant in the Room: Responding to Sherlock and it amazes me how serious people treat the (their!) Subtext.

Can it be that we are the only forum in the universe, that is not totally flooded with ships and Johnlock-ey stuff?

Oi, that looks like something that can burn up a lot of my time ..... must set some aside, then!

 

I don't know if we're the only one, but it certainly seems that way sometimes. I stumbled onto some Facebook page or other and it seemed like it was nothing but Johnlock in the comments. Some of it's kind of fun and interesting (and even somewhat convincing), but a lot of it is just people willfully seeing something that isn't there, IM very HO. The convolutions they have to go through to make something mean what they want it to mean ... nope, it's not for me. I would rather balance on Occam's Razor.

[J.P.]

The same podcast also tries to explain where the personal Subtexts might come from, but I don't think that there are so many people out there, relating to Johnlock on a personal level. I still don't understand why this is so massive.

[Arcadia]

A number of factors, don't you think? It is interesting, though. Does anyone know ... is it the same in other fandoms? That is ... do large parts of other fandoms insist their male leads are destined to end up in a romantic relationship with each other? Or is this something unique to Sherlock? (Or maybe there aren't any other shows out there with two male leads? I watch so few these days, I just realized I don't even know.)

[Inge l-w]

According to our dear waterfowl princess (aka Carol ), the whole slash thing started with StarTrek fanzines, (Kirk/Spock), which from my perspective is brainless, since Kirk is not just Three Continets Watson, he's First Quadrant James, Jimmy or Jim! ) There's a discussion of it somewhere in this place!

@Arcadia: if you listen to the Bally thing, don't miss Atlin Merrick's contribution, you will get some perceptive insights into Sherlock fanfiction.

[T.o.b.y]

The same podcast also tries to explain where the personal Subtexts might come from, but I don't think that there are so many people out there, relating to Johnlock on a personal level. I still don't understand why this is so massive.

 

I think I do... at least I have some theories.

 

- It's a very compelling pairing. Don't laugh at me, please. Leave sex aside for a moment and just think of these two characters together. Amazing chemistry. Strong affection. A history of having been written for each other over 100 years ago ("for each other" in the sense of for the purpose of being together and completing each other, not in the sense of meant to get married, but still).

 

- Their relationship is the central one of the series. Nearly all the most meaningful emotional scenes occur within it. Even John and Mary's wedding was more about John and Sherlock than anything else.

 

- Even though it was from the beginning treated as a joke, the idea that the two main characters could be a couple was put forward by the show itself, in the very first episode. You can't kill an idea once it's made a home inside your mind. The audience has from the very beginning been forced to consider it in some way. Of course you can laugh along and shrug it off. You can be shocked at such a blasphemous twist on the original. Or you can succumb to the influence of points 1 and 2 and fall down a rabbit hole of romance.

 

- Representation. Same sex relationships are gaining favor in popular fiction, but so far, they have been fairly marginal. The main romance of a work not specifically catering to a gay audience is still bound to be a traditional boy / girl one. It would be huge to have an iconic character like Sherlock Holmes be gay, or at least in love with another man.

 

 

I sympathize with the pairing, I just don't share it - not quite. I am primarily interested in the relationship between the boys. I see the romantic elements in the story. I just don't see the sex part. It's just not there in my eyes. And I do not really want to put a label on them, much less such a boring one as "boyfriends". I don't quite know what to call what they have. A friendship? A working partnership? A platonic romance? Non-genetic brotherhood? It's the very uniqueness and individuality of the thing that draws me to it.

 

A number of factors, don't you think? It is interesting, though. Does anyone know ... is it the same in other fandoms? That is ... do large parts of other fandoms insist their male leads are destined to end up in a romantic relationship with each other? Or is this something unique to Sherlock? (Or maybe there aren't any other shows out there with two male leads? I watch so few these days, I just realized I don't even know.)

 

I don't know. I've never been part of a fandom before. But if you google the name of any franchise and "fanart", you will find a lot...

 

Hasn't the theory that Holmes and Watson were together been around ever since the books first came out? It wasn't born with Sherlock, as far as I know. The series just picked it up as part and parcel of the Sherlock Holmes lore and incorporated it in a rather clever way into their version.

[Inge l-w]

Dear TOBY, wasn't THAT OTP what Sir Arthur himself wanted to scotch by getting Dr Watson safely married at the end of The Sign of the Four, and kept it up throughout the Adventures of Sherock Holmes and The Memoirs of Sherlock Holmes, eventually giving in to American publisher pressure and re-uniting the pair in The Return of Sherlock Holmes, beginning with The Empty House, where we're told of the doctor's "sad loss", and not a peep as to how it happened? And then in The Blanched Soldier we have the introduction ( repeated wholesale in SoT) about his conductor of light and the doctor's "selfish" act in getting married (again?) ? Not that Mrs Watson was used as much more than a plot device, so perhaps both Mrs Hudson and Mary are right in the Abominable episode about "these gentlemen!"

[J.P.]

TOBY, I moved on the edges of the LOTR fandom for a while. There was slash galore about all possible pairings, but nobody claimed any of them (even the one between Sam and Frodo) as any kind of OTP, not to mention trying to convert anybody, something like this would happen in the final installment.

But then, my home fanforums were a strickt slash-free zone, so I'm not anyone near an expert.

[Arcadia]

Yeah, I get that there's a lot of erotic art, and always has been. Drawn, written, sung, whatever. Some people are obsessed with it.

 

Longing for romance between X and Y ... that I also get. Never done it, but I get it.

 

Representation ... generally speaking, I'm in favor of it.

 

But this specific insistence that there is a conspiracy and "Johnlock" WILL happen someday, and they can prove it .... that's a whole different level of obsession, to me. The only thing I can compare it with from my personal history is the belief in various Kennedy assassination conspiracies. I've known a couple of people who are absolutely convinced they are true, and can "prove" it. That they happen to be "proving" two separate theories doesn't deter them one bit. Some of their "proofs" are even fairly convincing ... taken out of context. But all in all .... well, Occam's Razor again. I guess I'm just too logical.

[sfmpco]

For me the biggest problem of all with Johnlock is that John just isn't gay, and Johnlock fanfiction is about a gay relationship.  So even IF Sherlock was gay, and I don't think he is, the romantic feelings would only be a one way street.  John would reject any advances which would put Sherlock's feelings in the unreciprocated category.  So if Sherlock was gay and knew that John wasn't, he would keep his feelings to himself.  There would still be hurt but he would never be specifically rejected. John has shown from the first episode that he is only interested in women.  He even tries to pick up Anthea.  Then in ASIB, Sherlock rattles off the list of John's girlfriends.  And of course, let's not forget the biggie:  JOHN GETS MARRIED TO MARY.

 

Much ado is made of the dance at the wedding, especially in memes.  I do not believe Sherlock looks at John as if he's lost the greatest love of his life but that a new chapter has begun and he's a bit unsure of how it's going to work out for him - because he does now recognize the true value that he places on his friendship with John.

 

Johnlock fiction, however, is only interested in romance between the boys, and that's just never going to happen.  That being said, I don't entirely believe his cold lines in TAB regarding relationships and emotion being abhorrent.  Modern Sherlock doesn't entirely reflect those ideals.

 

I do think John is fascinated by the kinds of adventures aka "games" that Sherlock gets into and out of.  Being with Sherlock on those adventures has given his life new purpose and fulfillment.  That doesn't mean he has repressed homo-erotic feelings for Sherlock.  The thing is, Sherlock is a user: not just of drugs but of people with very little empathy for the damage caused in his wake.  He seemed like he might have got a minuscule of a clue when Janine walked out of his hospital room in HLV, because I think something about him did like her, but he used her nonetheless to accomplish a goal. Even if John was gay and even if Sherlock were also gay, I think John would be smart enough to know that Sherlock was not the kind of partner he'd want for a romantic relationship for the simple fact that Sherlock is a user.  

 

I hope we see more character growth for Sherlock in S4.  

[J.P.]

I think I have to withdraw from the internet until Valentine is over. All that Johnlocking starts to be annoying. -_-

[Van Buren Supernova]

Didn't know it's that extensive. Anyway, I am safe though, here is my only Sherlock's source.