Episode 2.3, "The Reichenbach Fall"

[Carol the Dabbler]

Well, Sherlock tells Anderson that he had everything figured out and allowed for -- but that strikes me as a bit of bluff and bravado.  How could he have figured out what all the possible eventualities were, let alone how to deal with them?  Nope, it's a guy thing.  Which may explain why he was able to be more honest with Molly -- she's not a guy.

 

[T.o.b.y]

Definitely a guy thing.

 

Poor Sherlock, it must be a big disappointment to him that nobody applauds his fantastic stunt. John is angry as hell, Molly knows already and is very calm about it all, and even Anderson, who he probably thought could be counted on for some mouth-dropping awe, now that he's an obsessive fan, fails to be impressed. Poor Sherlock...

[SherlockedCAMPer]

Definitely a guy thing.

 

Poor Sherlock, it must be a big disappointment to him that nobody applauds his fantastic stunt. John is angry as hell, Molly knows already and is very calm about it all, and even Anderson, who he probably thought could be counted on for some mouth-dropping awe, now that he's an obsessive fan, fails to be impressed. Poor Sherlock...

 

Sympathy button, Sympathy button, Sympathy button for

 

When John's & Mary's daughter gets old enough, he can tell her ;)  She's likely to be impressed.

[Waendal]

So, I watched this episode the other day and thought it was brilliant. As I've read the books, I knew very well that Sherlock wasn't actually dead, but still found myself welling up when he jumps off the roof (although it may be more due to Watson's reaction than anything else). I definitely wasn't expecting Moriarty to kill himself though, that was a big surprise.

 

Now I'm trying to work out how he managed to survive and fool John into believing that he was definitely dead when he was on the ground. My thoughts at the moment are that the cyclist who knocked John down was involved somehow to make sure that John was delayed into getting to Sherlock so that some kind of swap or 'trickery' (for want of another word) was able to happen while he was down. It's so annoying that I can't watch season 3 yet!

[Boton]

Well, Sherlock tells Anderson that he had everything figured out and allowed for -- but that strikes me as a bit of bluff and bravado.  How could he have figured out what all the possible eventualities were, let alone how to deal with them?  Nope, it's a guy thing.  Which may explain why he was able to be more honest with Molly -- she's not a guy.

 

Not just a guy thing.  I would have lied my rear off to Anderson too.  

 

Plus, to give Sherlock the benefit of the doubt, there is a perspective difference here.  Let's believe him that there were 13 different scenarios they were prepared for, and those did indeed represent the complete universe of things that could happen.  (I think each of those 13 was a "family" of possible happenings, because I don't think Sherlock had really prepared for Moriarty to commit suicide in such a graphic way, but he got it together long enough to fit that into the "Lazarus" category.)

 

On the front end of things, one or two scenarios that would end in Sherlock's own death could be very terrifying, and he indeed could have been leaning on Molly and telling her the truth that he thought he was going to die.  A 10% chance of dying doesn't sound that great when you're facing it.

 

Once it's over, he could easily package that for Anderson as him being in complete control, knowing that throughout the encounter, he was doing everything he could to steer things toward the more easily managed options.  So, as things went along, he was steering things away from him actually having to suicide and toward the solutions that gave him the best chance of survival while protecting his friends and avoiding whatever other nefarious outcomes he was afraid Moriarty was planning.

[sittything]

I've generally interpreted the whole I think I'm going to die line as a reference to him having to fake his death, which is why he told her "You" when she asked what he needed;  although, I think with Moriarty there is always an element of the unknown because dude is pretty unhinged.  I think Sherlock was nervous and fearful to some extent that he couldn't account for everything, but even if he thinks it's possible he might die, I don't think that's what he's alluding to in his line to Molly.  Now I'm rethinking this, since it seems many of you seem to think he really thought he might die and was being all open with her.  I think since my 2nd rewatch of TRF I've taken a pretty literal, face value approach to that scene.  Because the first time I was all "He needs her, what!??!?!"  Stupid Moftiss.

 

 

 

 

[Boton]

"Molly, I think I'm going to die."

 

Knowing our Sherlock, I wouldn't put it past him for this to be some confusing combination of truth and partial truth and outright lie, just dependent on the various scenarios.  Like, I think I might actually have to prepare to suicide, and I think I might have to prepare to have appeared to suicide.  Certainly, the only thing he really needed her help for was any of the scenarios that involved the extraction of a body from the morgue, and possibly just for the one(s) that involved extracting that particular body that looked similar to his own.  

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

When John's & Mary's daughter gets old enough, he can tell her ;)  She's likely to be impressed.

:D   Or he can tell Archie.

 

Now I'm trying to work out how he managed to survive and fool John into believing that he was definitely dead when he was on the ground. My thoughts at the moment are that the cyclist who knocked John down was involved somehow to make sure that John was delayed into getting to Sherlock so that some kind of swap or 'trickery' (for want of another word) was able to happen while he was down. It's so annoying that I can't watch season 3 yet!

 

You're in a ticklish situation right now, that's for sure.  This thread (for example) is full of S3 spoilers, even though it's nominally about an S2 episode.  If you'd like to discuss your thoughts without having to wade through dangerous territory, you could start a thread in the Series 2 subforum for that specific purpose, and we'll do our best to behave!

 

... the only thing he really needed her help for was any of the scenarios that involved the extraction of a body from the morgue, and possibly just for the one(s) that involved extracting that particular body that looked similar to his own.

 

Don't forget that he needed a death certificate -- and that spare corpse would never have fooled anyone at close range.

 

[T.o.b.y]

"Molly, I think I'm going to die."

 

Knowing our Sherlock, I wouldn't put it past him for this to be some confusing combination of truth and partial truth and outright lie, just dependent on the various scenarios.  Like, I think I might actually have to prepare to suicide, and I think I might have to prepare to have appeared to suicide.  Certainly, the only thing he really needed her help for was any of the scenarios that involved the extraction of a body from the morgue, and possibly just for the one(s) that involved extracting that particular body that looked similar to his own.  

 

I think you are probably right.

 

Although it would be so much more romantic, wouldn't it, if Sherlock had had a moment where he really was afraid that all his plans would fail and he'd not leave that roof alive, and if he felt he needed to talk to Molly about a few things before that happened.

 

What I really do not doubt was sincere was Sherlock's question if she would still want to help him even if he was not a great genius. That is a beautiful little moment. One of my favorites.

 

[sittything]

 

When John's & Mary's daughter gets old enough, he can tell her ;)  She's likely to be impressed.

:D   Or he can tell Archie.

 

 

Can we get that Archie kid back?  I LOVED him.  And I loved Sherlock's interactions with him.  It was lovely.

 

[SherlockedCAMPer]

Yes the Sherlock/Archie interaction was brilliant during the flashback and the reception.

[sfmpco]

Just got my copy of THE SHERLOCK CHRONICLES, and according to a deleted scene, it was Moriarty who orchestrated the fake phone call to John that Mrs. Hudson had been shot in order to get him out of the area.

[Arcadia]

Wow. Really. I would've bet my bottom dollar it was Sherlock himself. Interesting.

[Carol the Dabbler]

That's what I thought too, so John wouldn't get in his way or try to talk him out of anything.

 

OK, lemme check the sequence of events with Ariane DeVere's transcript:

 

1.  Unbeknownst to John, Sherlock invites Moriarty to the roof.

2.  Enough time passes that John has fallen asleep.

3.  John gets the fake phone call and leaves.

4.  Almost immediately after that, Jim texts Sherlock that he has arrived.

 

Whoever actually made the call was apparently aware that Moriarty was on his way.  Obviously Moriarty himself knew that, so it would be easiest for him to have made (or authorized) the call to John.  On the other hand, Sherlock could have stationed Molly by the stairs to the roof, and as soon as she saw Jim on his way up, she could have disguised her voice and made the call (which would also have alerted Sherlock to Jim's arrival).

 

One reason I figured it was Sherlock was the cavalier way he refused to go to Baker Street with John -- I figured that meant he knew the call was a fake because it was his doing.  But on second (third, whatever) thought, it wouldn't taken much effort for Sherlock to realize that the call was very likely a fake (especially when it was followed up so soon by Moriarty's text message).

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

Next question:

 

If Moriarty hadn't gotten John out of the way, what was Sherlock planning to do about John?  He couldn't very well take him up to the roof -- John would have tried to talk some sense into him, defend him against Moriarty, etc.  And if it came down to "suicide," then he apparently wanted John as his witness, down on the street.

 

But I guess that's not so difficult.  He could've said he was going to use the restroom.  Even if John eventually decided he'd been gone an awful long time, he'd check the nearby restrooms to see if Sherlock had taken ill, and even then, the roof is probably the last place he'd think to look.  Then once Sherlock decided on Operation Lazarus, he could simply phone John and say meet me down on the street.

 

[sfmpco]

I tell you, you can't examine that whole rooftop scene/suicide too carefully because there are more questions left unanswered than are answered.  We just sort of have to take it as face value.

[Carol the Dabbler]

But where is the fun in that?  ;)

 

[SherlockedCAMPer]

That book will be fun to read (in about 3 weeks when it arrives).

 

And Jenny, you know we have to ask as many questions as possible and over analyze everything. We probably wouldn't be on here much if we didn't.

[Arcadia]

Next question:

 

If Moriarty hadn't gotten John out of the way, what was Sherlock planning to do about John?  He couldn't very well take him up to the roof -- John would have tried to talk some sense into him, defend him against Moriarty, etc.  And if it came down to "suicide," then he apparently wanted John as his witness, down on the street.

 

But I guess that's not so difficult.  He could've said he was going to use the restroom.  Even if John eventually decided he'd been gone an awful long time, he'd check the nearby restrooms to see if Sherlock had taken ill, and even then, the roof is probably the last place he'd think to look.  Then once Sherlock decided on Operation Lazarus, he could simply phone John and say meet me down on the street.

I'm still sort of partial to the idea that John wasn't supposed to return in time to see Sherlock jump. Alas, that presupposes that it was Sherlock's plan to send him away in the first place .... drat.

[sittything]

I'm still flummoxed that Moriarty arranged the Mrs. Hudson call...

 

[T.o.b.y]

Me too, but I shouldn't be, really, because the note about the sick woman at the inn in the original story was Moriarty's work as well, if I remember correctly. Holmes merely didn't show that he guessed, pardon, deduced, as much.

 

Carol, I am sure Sherlock had a plan to get John out of the way, too, if Moriarty hadn't taken care of that.

 

This is interesting, though, because it shows that "it was all under control" Sherlock was not calling all the shots, was he...

[Carol the Dabbler]

I'm still sort of partial to the idea that John wasn't supposed to return in time to see Sherlock jump. Alas, that presupposes that it was Sherlock's plan to send him away in the first place .... drat.

But if John hadn't been there, then who would Sherlock have jumped FOR? The only other people in sight were assorted snipers and "25 tramps." OK, so the snipers had to see him jump -- unless they didn't because Mycroft was going to buy them off anyhow....

 

I'm beginning to feel like one of those computers that Captain Kirk was always driving crazy. 

 

I'm still flummoxed that Moriarty arranged the Mrs. Hudson call...

Me too, but I shouldn't be, really, because the note about the sick woman at the inn in the original story was Moriarty's work as well, if I remember correctly. Holmes merely didn't show that he guessed, pardon, deduced, as much.

Oh, good point, T.o.b.y -- Moftiss always conform to canon.

 

(Except when they don't, of course.)

[Arcadia]

But if John hadn't been there, then who would Sherlock have jumped FOR? The only other people in sight were assorted snipers and "25 tramps." OK, so the snipers had to see him jump -- unless they didn't because Mycroft was going to buy them off anyhow....

 

I'm beginning to feel like one of those computers that Captain Kirk was always driving crazy. 

I reach!!

[Carol the Dabbler]

 

[Redbeard]

My take is that Sherlock's emotions were genuine...though it is admittedly hard to ever tell with him!  But even if he and Mycroft ran through a million different scenarios, there was no way he could be 100% confident everything would play out according to their plans.  Too many variables - most especially because his opponent is out and out crazy.  Even Sherlock knows he is not perfect and takes the occasional "shot in the dark (good one though)" so he had to have known actual death/defeat was a possibility.  But either way his emotion would be real because even a "fake death" would be life-changing for himself and his friends.