Episode 2.3, "The Reichenbach Fall"

[Arcadia]

It just occurred to me that if "staying alive" is indeed the Final Problem (and I think it is), then Sherlock solved it in His Last Vow. In the Mind Palace sequence, I mean. He decided to stay alive, he found a reason to do so. He was needed. How fitting that this was embedded in an, albeit imaginary, conversation with Moriarty, of all people.

And he stayed alive at the end, too, due to Moriarty ... England needed him. Hmmmmm......

[jesskayding]

Ha ha ha ha, staying alive staying alive....

 

The beginning of this always cracks me up... Can't help but tO picture John Travolta every single time I hear this song. I think the same is for the Cumberbatch. Look how he started walking when he came on to that roof, hilarious. Sorry have to share this, enjoy...

 

 

 

http://youtu.be/Fa9n7GirhsI

[Carol the Dabbler]

If you're looking for the discussion of various possible Doctor Who references in BBC Sherlock episodes, that now has its own thread, The DOCTOR WHO Connection.

 

[Arcadia]

Actually, I was looking for the discussion of various possible Meet Me in St. Louis references. Where did you stash them?

[Carol the Dabbler]

You don't really want to know. 

 

[Schlauer Fuchs]

I just started re-watching The Reichenbach Fall again, and something struck me: In Anderson's first theory about how Sherlock survived, he claims that the body found on the street was really Moriarty's one - but if he seriously thinks so, then they cannot have found a body on the top of the roof, can they? So Moriarty's body must have vanished somehow, either it has been taken away or it just walked off.... sry if you have discussed this before, I didn't read the 28 pages. But I had to share this thought right away before I go to bed while watching now....!?!?

[T.o.b.y]

We've speculated about what became of Moriarty's body, yeah, and I don't think we came even close to a good answer. The show certainly leaves that question conspicuously unanswered. I have a bit of a hunch, though, that it will be answered in series 4. It seems we're far from done with The Fall yet. Which I'm glad about, because there is plenty of other stuff I want to know about it as well.

[Schlauer Fuchs]

okay, thanks... that calms me a little, so I may not have gotten it totally wrong... I just never thought about Moriarty's body before, it was more like "well, he's either dead or he isn't". That's of course still true, but somehow his disappearance gives me even more hope that he'll actually be back. Hell, I wish I had known the series when it aired, then I wouldn't be so behind with the theories and speculations. So good night then everybody and Toby in particular

[Carol the Dabbler]

Don't worry -- there are so darn many theories that everybody's behind!

 

G'night!

 

[Arcadia]

Actually, I was looking for the discussion of various possible Meet Me in St. Louis references. Where did you stash them?

 

You don't really want to know. 

 

Urgh ooff, so that's why I've been a little constipated lately ........

[Carol the Dabbler]

Arcadia, you are evil! 

 

[jesskayding]

Gross. Do ya'll want me to bring Magnussen over here too? Huh? I will do it! Oh What the HEy!

 

 

 

 

SIKE! Ha ya'll thought Magnussen would appear...   

 

[Arcadia]

Arcadia, you are evil! 

Me??  

 

[jesskayding]

That looks like a cute/funny animal pic

[sherlockandjohn]

I wonder if in time to come I will continue to see this episode as the last of the truly original ones of BBC Sherlock. Not to slap series 3; it's wonderfully gripping. I just think series 1 and 2 were sharper and more original.

 

Just a thought.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Less confusing, that's for damn sure!

 

[jesskayding]

I'm still waiting to be confused.

[sherlockandjohn]

Hm, no , series 3 confused me, in that it took several turns with Sherlock's character and seemingly went from one extreme to another. Sherlock was always extreme, granted, but in each episode I found him more or less the same, though in small steps he was becoming more inclined to sentiment. In series 3, he seems almost like a different person in each episode.

 

Also the "missing links" or lack of explanations, if you will, in series 3 made it confusing to me.

[jesskayding]

See to me they have to develope the characters quite quickly... It is

2-3 years betwixt each series... You can literally see how much they've physically aged in each series. They have to mature each character by 2/3 years, every single series. Are you the same person after 6 years? If so you are truly one of a kind.

[sfmpco]

Okay, has this question ever really been answered?

 

WHY WOULD MORIARTY KILL HIMSELF?

 

Why exactly would he commit suicide?  Suicide is a big deal.  I don't get the sense that he was depressed.  He had a great criminal network that he controlled.  If he shoots himself, he doesn't know if Sherlock ever complied with the suicide, so you would think that would take some of the fun out of it for him.  Staying alive... he had every reason to stay alive... keep doing his thing.  Sherlock being "ordinary" isn't really motivation to kill himself.  Psychopaths are often so narcissistic that suicide wouldn't be on their list of things to do.

[T.o.b.y]

Okay, has this question ever really been answered?

 

WHY WOULD MORIARTY KILL HIMSELF?

 

Why exactly would he commit suicide?  Suicide is a big deal.  I don't get the sense that he was depressed.  He had a great criminal network that he controlled.  If he shoots himself, he doesn't know if Sherlock ever complied with the suicide, so you would think that would take some of the fun out of it for him.  Staying alive... he had every reason to stay alive... keep doing his thing.  Sherlock being "ordinary" isn't really motivation to kill himself.  Psychopaths are often so narcissistic that suicide wouldn't be on their list of things to do.

 

Well, to begin with, we don't know whether he really did kill himself at all. Series 4 might very well reveal that he is as alive as ever.

 

But if he did kill himself, why? Okay, I'll answer with another question: Why not? What reason does a person like Moriarty have to go on living? That's his big problem, isn't it. The final problem. Staying alive. It's just so boring, isn't it? It's just staying. If Moriarty truly had run out of distractions by the end of series 2, he might very well shoot himself, especially if that means winning the game against Sherlock (and so he thought he had, at least if he really did kill himself).

 

Remember Sherlock at the beginning of the Great Game. Fatally bored. Shooting the wall. Imagine Sherlock lived all on his own and had a gun. No Mrs Hudson to bring tea in the mornings. No John to come home and take the gun away and complain about the holes in the wall and be sulked at and snap back and scold. No Molly at Bart's who would be heartbroken if he never came back to manipulate her into giving him access to corpses and smuggle out body parts. No Lestrade who will surely offer the next case soon. Don't you think in that case, Sherlock himself may be dead by now? I do. Heck, he was nearly dead at the end of A Study in Pink!

 

Sherlock and Moriarty are pretty similar in series 1. But they develop in opposite directions. Sherlock finds more and more reasons to stay alive, and Moriarty just goes on playing his game until it's reached the final act, and then he (thinks he) wins. After winning, there is really nothing left for him to do, so why not kill himself? It makes perfect sense to me...

 

[Pamela]

The "on the surface" reason he offed himself was so that there would be no way he could call off the snipers.  But who knows ...

[jesskayding]

I wonder if in time to come I will continue to see this episode as the last of the truly original ones of BBC Sherlock. Not to slap series 3; it's wonderfully gripping. I just think series 1 and 2 were sharper and more original.

 

Just a thought.

 

I don't know what's wrong with y'all, my series 3 DVD's are skipping due to over usage. Y'all trippin' on acids or something. Keep me away from whatever colored pills y'all are taking. I'll stick to my purple ones. I want to continue loving Jimmy Hendrix, Janis Joplin & His Last Vow.

[sherlockandjohn]

See to me they have to develope the characters quite quickly... It is

2-3 years betwixt each series... You can literally see how much they've physically aged in each series. They have to mature each character by 2/3 years, every single series. Are you the same person after 6 years? If so you are truly one of a kind.

 

No, of course I'm not. I'm not sure I change as much as Sherlock does, but I'm not complaining that his change is unbelievable, just that I find it sad - a bit. I've never really seen a character like him before, and I completely fell in love with his strange combination of character traits. There's his brilliance, of course, and his dry humor. Then there is the lack of empathy and respect on one hand, and on the other hand a soft spot for the people who accept him as he is. His friendship with John feels all the more heartwarming, because Sherlock is a difficult man to get along with, but he and John seem to fit anyway. In the last two episodes, the dynamic shifted, and while the episodes are moving, they don't get me thinking "brilliant! This is the best series ever!" In particular not His Last Vow, as it reminds me of similar stories. It is very, very well told, but still not as unique as most of the other episodes, I think. I used to feel excited because of the sheer brilliance of the show. I would literally clap my hands and laugh in astonishment. Granted, if His Last Vow had made me curl up and cry from all the beautiful sentiment, that would have been equally good, but that only happened to some degree. Mostly, it just makes me sad for all the bad things that happen. It's a good episode, but not a personal favorite. It's just personal taste. The emotional depth is amazing, so it is unique in it's own way, but it feels more "heavy" than, say, The Reichenbach Fall. TRF is dynamic and exciting and fun, while also being heartwarming, then heartbreaking, and dramatic all in one package. At least, this is how I experience the difference between those two episodes, which actually do have several things in common in terms of epicness and dramatic effect.

[Arcadia]

I have to admit I don't see that big a difference from season to season, to me it all flows quite nicely. I wonder, though, if that's not partly because I didn't have to wait that long from S2 to S3; just a matter of 2-3 months, I think. Not long enough to get all worked up over the series the way I have done since then. But also I've grown pretty adept at lowering my expectations; the better to be pleasantly surprised when things turn out better than hoped!