What other TV shows do you watch?

[Pseudonym]

True, and Sherlock does like both music and twirling. 

[Van Buren Supernova]

I thought the same, that Mycroft merely demonstrated that he has power to control cameras, and not the more sinister one.

 

It sounds more chilling and works better if they want to mislead the audience thinking that it's Moriarty, but!

Imo, there is a big flaw in the plan.

 

If you were John, why would you want to get into the car if he really turned the camera away for that sinister purpose?

For me, that would make me more resistant to follow. I would rather take my chance to scream, fight or limp back to close proximity where I know Lestrade and gang are still around.

If you avoided being beaten up because authority couldn't see you since the baddies turn the camera away, what do you think they are capable of doing to you once you follow them to secluded area and completely at their captivity and mercy?

 

So yah, in that case, I'd definitely hit Anthea with my stick, scream my bloody lung out and ninja sprint limp back to the crime scene or restaurant.

[Pseudonym]

I always took it as him not having a choice. Either you choose to get in the car, or we make you get in the car. 

 

Something I always thought was completely out of character was that when John asks Donovan where he can get a taxi he says 'only... my leg.' I don't think John would draw attention to his limp, I always thought he would be stoic and pigheaded enough to limp across London without mentioning it if he had to. I don't see why he says it, why not just ask for a taxi and limp away without mentioning his leg? She can see why he would need a taxi, he doesn't need to say it. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

Actually the thing that always bothers me about that scene is Donovan's answer. Try the main road? Gee thanks, lady -- I never would've thought of that!!!

[Pseudonym]

I think I expect Donovan to be useless and unhelpful so her response doesn't surprise me much. 

[Boton]

I always took it as him not having a choice. Either you choose to get in the car, or we make you get in the car. 

 

Something I always thought was completely out of character was that when John asks Donovan where he can get a taxi he says 'only... my leg.' I don't think John would draw attention to his limp, I always thought he would be stoic and pigheaded enough to limp across London without mentioning it if he had to. I don't see why he says it, why not just ask for a taxi and limp away without mentioning his leg? She can see why he would need a taxi, he doesn't need to say it. 

 

Maybe I'm just writing fiction in my own head, but I assume that normally John would be stoic, but I think the psychsomatic leg problem is a lot newer than we maybe think.  I think all of the clues about him being newly back in London and looking for a place to live basically mean he's days-to-weeks from his wounding, being transported home for care, and being discharged as  wounded vet.  I think that we are seeing him starting to think of himself as a "wounded vet" rather than an army doctor or whatever his primary identity was before, and, in that moment, he was subconsciously thinking, "oh, that's right, I'm a wounded vet, and such people have to depend on taxis and stay home instead of running about and ask other people for help."  Since the leg is psychosomatic, I think he is acting out his perception of a wounded vet rather than actually behaving like you would if you had a "real" wound that caused you pain.

 

There is a bit of a fan fiction trope that John was more seriously injured in his shoulder than he lets on, and that he has continual or intermittent pain from it.  I kind of like that trope, because it makes sense to me that John would never mention a stiff or painful shoulder, but he'd be subconsciously "playing" the disabled vet at first because his sense of identity had been rocked.  

[Pseudonym]

I also assume the leg issue is very new and John is newly home - doesn't Sherlock say he's 'recently invalided home'? I don't know, I've always thought that John would be less likely to mention the leg knowing it's psychosomatic - in my mind I think he'd feel almost as if he's faking it (though we, and he, know he's not) and be more embarrassed at pointing it out. I always took John as the kind of man who would do everything he could not to come across as disabled - a 'no, I can do this, and I bl00dy well will. I don't need your help.' I think I equate him to a similar kind of person as my dad, who does a lot of things he shouldn't because he's adamant he can and will (though he'll then suffer because of it for days). 

[Boton]

 I always took John as the kind of man who would do everything he could not to come across as disabled - a 'no, I can do this, and I bl00dy well will. I don't need your help.' I think I equate him to a similar kind of person as my dad, who does a lot of things he shouldn't because he's adamant he can and will (though he'll then suffer because of it for days). 

 

Do we have the same dad?  :P

 

Yeah, I agree with you about John the vast majority of the time. I just think in SiP we are supposed to see him foundering a bit, especially so Sherlock can save John and John can save Sherlock all in the same episode.  But who knows, really?

[Pseudonym]

Ha, maybe. ;) Another thing my dad used to do, before he retired, was casually mention at the dinner table that he'd slipped with a tool and caught his arm. He'd talk about it like it was a paper cut, but it was well known that if he had bothered to mention it it was going to be some horrific bloody gouge. He's always been pretty stoic about injuries and pain. My brother, on the other hand, used to scream he was having a heart attack whenever he had heart burn. 

 

Even though it's sad I like seeing John in the bedsit in the beginning, you really get a feel of how empty, grey and pointless his life is. At the same time he doesn't really want to have to interact with anyone, especially no one he knew when he was young and fit, when Mike calls his name he seems to speed up a bit to avoid having to talk to him. I wonder if, at this point, if someone showed him the future would he still choose to meet Sherlock? 

 

On the one hand, you will meet an amazing, vibrant man who will change your life, cure your limp, and bring colour and excitement back into your world. 

 

On the other hand, that same man will be responsible for some of the worst things that will ever happen to you, constantly insult and belittle you, and there will be a time when you will come close to destroying each other.

[Boton]

My dad is getting older and has a lot of back problems.  When he sneezes, it brings involuntary tears to his eyes; most of the time, he can't stand up straight.  Nonetheless, he confesses to me with great embarrassment if he has to take a naproxen before bedtime.  

 

Yes, I like the bit with John in the beginning, just as you describe.  It really gives some perspective to this portrayal of Watson that many of the others don't have.

[Carol the Dabbler]

On the one hand, you will meet an amazing, vibrant man who will change your life, cure your limp, and bring colour and excitement back into your world. 

 

On the other hand, that same man will be responsible for some of the worst things that will ever happen to you, constantly insult and belittle you, and there will be a time when you will come close to destroying each other.

 

With the possible exception of the limp, that sounds like an awful lot of marriages.

 

I suppose that something along those lines (though hopefully nowhere near as extreme) is only to be expected in any close relationship.  Any time you let someone inside your shields, they're in a position to cause you dreadful pain.  And it would take a true saint to *never* abuse that position.

[Pseudonym]

... grim. 

[T.o.b.y]

Ha, maybe. ;) Another thing my dad used to do, before he retired, was casually mention at the dinner table that he'd slipped with a tool and caught his arm. He'd talk about it like it was a paper cut, but it was well known that if he had bothered to mention it it was going to be some horrific bloody gouge. He's always been pretty stoic about injuries and pain. My brother, on the other hand, used to scream he was having a heart attack whenever he had heart burn.

 

Even though it's sad I like seeing John in the bedsit in the beginning, you really get a feel of how empty, grey and pointless his life is. At the same time he doesn't really want to have to interact with anyone, especially no one he knew when he was young and fit, when Mike calls his name he seems to speed up a bit to avoid having to talk to him. I wonder if, at this point, if someone showed him the future would he still choose to meet Sherlock?

 

On the one hand, you will meet an amazing, vibrant man who will change your life, cure your limp, and bring colour and excitement back into your world.

 

On the other hand, that same man will be responsible for some of the worst things that will ever happen to you, constantly insult and belittle you, and there will be a time when you will come close to destroying each other.

Hmm. You know what? I think the John Watson Martin Freeman plays might have said no. There's always this reluctance in his friendship with Sherlock, as if he is drawn to him not only against his better judgment but also his will.

[Pseudonym]

I've noticed that too, from as early as TBB John doesn't seem to actually like Sherlock all that much, it's more like he tolerates him just to have the perk of crime scenes. It's sad really that it's played that way, that one of the great famous literally friendships gets reduced to John gritting his teeth. Yes, this Sherlock is more abrasive than he is in the books, and I like the fact that John is not at all bungling and fuddy-duddy, but it would have been nice to see a bit more genuine friendship between them that can't just be written off as a result of adrenaline. I get the impression that Sherlock, despite his casual insults, likes and appreciates John more than John likes and appreciates him. Really it's not that much of a surprise that Sherlock, ill equipped to deal with interpersonal relationships at the best of times, doesn't know he's John's best friend. 

Martin plays John a bit like I imagine Martin himself, ie angry, passive-aggressive (at best), and spiky. Obviously I love the series and these versions of the characters, but I do wish he had dialled it back a bit, or that the angriness came out more at villains and less with Sherlock. It's funny in fic how often john is described as a healer and a protector, when we actually see little of either, especially in regards to his best bud. Perhaps TLD has poisoned me to John so I'm more inclined to look upon him unfavourably now, but I remember being surprised in TBB that he was already exasperated with Sherlock and was pretty confrontational. Perhaps you can guys can help jog my memory and point out scenes where we see John being genuinely nice and friendly when they're not in case mode (or drunk)? There have to be some scenes, but I'm drawing a blank. I guess because they spend so much time on crime scenes that's the only time there's any chance for them to be seen as friendly on screen. Bah.  

[Arcadia]

Hmm, I see what you mean but I never quite saw John as disliking Sherlock, just being exasperated by him. Even in TLD I don't see dislike so much as ... as sense of betrayal, I guess? Although I still maintain that John in that episode is really down on himself, not Sherlock, but Sherlock happens to be a convenient target for John's need to vent his anger.

 

At any rate, as to scenes where he seems to like Sherlock ... the first thing that came to mind was him punching out the superintendent for insulting Sherlock in TRF. Though that could be due more to loyalty than to fondness, but I choose to think John's loyal because he IS fond.

 

I think the warmest moment between them is when John asks Sherlock to be his best man. Hmmmm.... giggling together and sassing Mycroft at Buckingham Palace, does that count as liking? Trying to calm him down when he's freaking out during Hounds? Going to the Holmes' cottage for Christmas? There's something else tickling at the back of my mind but I can't come up with it right now.

[Pseudonym]

I don't think John dislikes him, that's a bit too strong, but there are times he doesn't seem to particularly like him either.

 

I'm not sure about the Christmas cottage, that all seems iffy, I get the impression there was some careful manoeuvring by Sherlock to get everyone where he needed them. Baskerville is a good point though, especially since John seems genuinely bothered by Sherlock seemingly rejecting his friendship. And the palace giggles, though I'm still a bit thrown exactly why John takes a good long look at Sherlock's crotch instead of just asking if he's wearing pants straight off, but that's a whole other issue. 

I do remember John being impressed by Sherlock's deductions again on the bank of the river in TGG, there he seems impressed again for a while. At what point does he obviously stop being impressed by the deductions and seems more irritated, is it just after the Fall?

[Arcadia]

Oh, well, sometimes I don't like him (or John) either. For example, I want to kick him every time I see him manipulating Molly in TBB. But I'm still fond of him. He's a monster, but he's our monster.

 

I thought John kind of took Sherlock for granted in S3. And I believe he was still irritated with him as well. But he also seemed to place absolute trust in Sherlock when they went to meet Magnussen. Soooo ... I don't know what that points to.

[Pseudonym]

Do you really think he's a monster? That line always bugged me.

[Boton]

Honestly, I think the "monster" line is taken a little bit too seriously; I always hear it as "arsehole" instead, and that seems to make the difference. That's one of the places I think John is just so frustrated, along the lines of the way he was frustrated with Mary in HLV.  His life, in his own mind, wasn't supposed to turn out like this, and he's blaming everyone who gets in his vicinity.

 

I have to disagree with the assessment that MF plays John like he barely tolerates him, and I really don't think John cares one way or the other about the crime scenes - he likes going to them with Sherlock.  Their relationship reminds me of one I had with a best friend years ago -- somehow, you "fall in love," so to speak, with this person, and sometimes you can't believe the level of frustration and stupidity you put up with to be with then, but then you realize that its also that this friendship gives you the kind of fun and closeness that you crave.  I think John and Sherlock are like that.  

 

I also think Carol is right that it resembles many marriages, and that accounts for part of the reason that I don't like Johnlock fan fics, but I love platonic marriage fan fics.  Those two should get married not because of any physical attraction but simply to take each other out of circulation so they can't do as much damage on their own.  

[T.o.b.y]

Honestly, I think the "monster" line is taken a little bit too seriously; I always hear it as "arsehole" instead, and that seems to make the difference. That's one of the places I think John is just so frustrated, along the lines of the way he was frustrated with Mary in HLV. His life, in his own mind, wasn't supposed to turn out like this, and he's blaming everyone who gets in his vicinity.

 

I have to disagree with the assessment that MF plays John like he barely tolerates him, and I really don't think John cares one way or the other about the crime scenes - he likes going to them with Sherlock. Their relationship reminds me of one I had with a best friend years ago -- somehow, you "fall in love," so to speak, with this person, and sometimes you can't believe the level of frustration and stupidity you put up with to be with then, but then you realize that its also that this friendship gives you the kind of fun and closeness that you crave. I think John and Sherlock are like that.

 

I also think Carol is right that it resembles many marriages, and that accounts for part of the reason that I don't like Johnlock fan fics, but I love platonic marriage fan fics. Those two should get married not because of any physical attraction but simply to take each other out of circulation so they can't do as much damage on their own.

:-D Talk about a marriage made in hell...

 

Just to be clear, I do not interpret John's behavior as implying he doesn't really like Sherlock. I think he does like him but if he could choose not to, he would. It wouldn't be a wise decision and it wouldn't do him much good but I think he would make it, at least in most of his moods.

 

Sort of the same way he was drawn to Mary, he thought he wanted a nice, normal woman but what actually attracted him was a daredevil genius with frighteningly good acting skills. Given the choice, he would probably not be attracted to that but he is.

[Boton]

 

Sort of the same way he was drawn to Mary, he thought he wanted a nice, normal woman but what actually attracted him was a daredevil genius with frighteningly good acting skills. Given the choice, he would probably not be attracted to that but he is.

 

 

So, with both Mary and Sherlock, do you think that John's attraction to them is problematic?  Are we saying that a mentally/emotionally healthy John would not choose these relationships, and that they are in some ways toxic?  

 

IMHO, that's where the Mary character has always been problematic for me.  Since they made her from a minor character in ACD into a bada$$, Bond villain, Amazon woman, they also made her into a version of Sherlock.  And they therefore established a pattern that John runs around getting into relationships with people who are loose canons in some way.  That winds up saying something about John that I don't think was present in the original ACD Watson, nor do I think it is necessary.

[T.o.b.y]

 

 

 

Sort of the same way he was drawn to Mary, he thought he wanted a nice, normal woman but what actually attracted him was a daredevil genius with frighteningly good acting skills. Given the choice, he would probably not be attracted to that but he is.

 

So, with both Mary and Sherlock, do you think that John's attraction to them is problematic? Are we saying that a mentally/emotionally healthy John would not choose these relationships, and that they are in some ways toxic?

 

IMHO, that's where the Mary character has always been problematic for me. Since they made her from a minor character in ACD into a bada$$, Bond villain, Amazon woman, they also made her into a version of Sherlock. And they therefore established a pattern that John runs around getting into relationships with people who are loose canons in some way. That winds up saying something about John that I don't think was present in the original ACD Watson, nor do I think it is necessary.

Neither canon-compliant nor necessary, no, but certainly interesting.

 

In real life, sure, it would all be very problematic. But in fiction, no... That wasn't what I meant. All I was trying to say is that John seems to want to be a different kind of person from whom he really is, more normal, I guess. He doesn't seem at peace with himself and the kind of people his true self is drawn to. Just makes for an interesting conflict imo. I don't even know if it's fully resolved by the end of the series. But that's okay. Basically the epilog says yes, boys, you're both F***ed up but you will become legends all the same and we love you. I can live with that and it looked as if they could too.

[Boton]

 

. Basically the epilog says yes, boys, you're both f***ed up but you will become legends all the same and we love you. I can live with that and it looked as if they could too.

 

It's a very nice epilogue in that regard.  There is something very comforting about the "all heroes have feet of clay" message that comes across there.

 

(FWIW, I think this John is healthier than James Wilson on House, and Wilson was my first Watson.  I don't know how many times I yelled, "get some counseling" at the screen when Wilson let himself be run over by House, so I often like this John better.  Except, of course, that I am still nursing a crush on RSL that started in about 1986.)

[Arcadia]

Do you really think he's a monster? That line always bugged me.

 

Well, yes, but that's because I assumed "monster" was meant in the same way I called one of my cats a "monster;" affectionately. He (the cat) was a monster because he was bossy and full of himself and rather sneaky when he wanted something you didn't want him to have, but I loved him anyway. (Actually, that rather describes Sherlock as well.... )

[Pseudonym]

But John doesn't say it when he's feeling affectionate, he says it when he's convinced himself Sherlock is to blame for everything wrong with his life.