Molly Hooper

[sittything]

I love both characters, but no.

 

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[Shadow Dweller]

Heheheh... How about Mollstrade? :D

[sittything]

Mollstrade is better than Mollcroft or whatever it is you wrote.  lol   I'm too lazy to flip back a page and look now that I've started typing.  But I'll be Sherlolly forever.

 

 

[Amber§]

Oh, absolutely! Sherlock and Molly are made for each other! I can see Sherlock in a relationship only with Molly or, better, with Eirene Adler.

[Shadow Dweller]

Sherlolly, good for Sherlock but absolute disaster for Molly. But there's no accounting for taste, after all she have eyes for showy but I-cannot-be-bothered-to-treat-other-people-with-consideration-as-fellow-human-beings-unless-they-like-me-first-and-met-my-approval.

[sfmpco]

I don't think Sherlolly would be a disaster for Molly, but at the moment it would be.  If Sherlock doesn't actually get clean, there's no trust to be had with an addict.  And Sherlock is only labeling himself as a "user," which is his way of justifying his addiction.  But Molly is smart enough not to get involved with him if he can't get his act together in that regard.

 

Also, even though she does carry deeper feelings for him, drug-addiction is very off-putting, and I would think that's where she's at right now.  

[Shadow Dweller]

Sherlock is too self-centered and egoistical to care for another person for a long-term at the moment. He will have to train that particular habit and do much soul-searching to be considered as romantic relationship-material (not talking about the suicidal, thrill-seeker type who often drawn to bad boys).

[J.P.]

 

He will have to train that particular habit and do much soul-searching to be considered as romantic relationship-material

Hmmm... why should he do this? Or what if his soul-searching will find a "no"? :P

[Shadow Dweller]

Then he will remain a manchild and burden for others forever.

[sittything]

Then he will remain a manchild and burden for others forever.

 

I don't think we're gonna see this.  I really feel like a good chunk of this series is just watching Sherlock grow up.  Has he had a few setbacks late season 3 into TAB?  Sure.  But I still think he's still on the path to becoming a good man.

[Arcadia]

I hope so, the alternatives are too sad. When it finally ends, I don't want to be mourning because Sherlock never lived up to his potential. Gah, that's a horrible burden to put on someone, isn't it? Well... sorry Sherlock! Deal with it! :D

[T.o.b.y]

I am sure we'll see Sherlock mature further, but I don't expect or hope he'll ever be anything like an ordinary human being, and he'll never be any kind of saint. I don't see him becoming relationship material any time soon, either.

 

The problem isn't that he does not care for other people, imo. He actually cares very much. But so far, that hasn't stopped him from doing atrocious things to those he loves. I also can't see him making any kind of compromises for a partner, not long term.

 

The outcome I'd like best for him and Molly would be for her to turn him down. In series 3, I think there was a moment when he was quite ready to try out something romantic with her, but she was engaged and that was the end of that. Now that Tom is out of the picture, and Sherlock is still in a sense alone because John and Mary are still married and starting a family, he might just give it another go, and if he does, I really, really want her to say no. I want Molly to be that wise and go head over heart at him, of all people. I like the idea of her loving him, being in love, even, but realizing that a relationship in the traditional sense isn't something he would be good at or happy with for long, that it wouldn't make her happy either and that they are much better off as friends. If they absolutely have to do a Sherlock / Molly romance, that's how I wish it would go. Or they could just leave the matter alone.

[sfmpco]

I think Sherlock is going to be raked over the emotional coals in S4.  Where Molly fits into that, I don't know, but I think Sherlock may come out the other end just a bit humbler a bit more aware of his own humanity.  One can't stay a man-child forever.  It's grossly obnoxious.  Basically, I think S4 is going to knock him off the pedestal he built for himself or at least knock him down a peg or two.

 

Whether you like Mary or not, I just really don't want to see John grieving again, because the poor guy has been through enough.  On the other hand perhaps Sherlock will have to be a true friend and get a little empathetic and sympathetic spine.

[J.P.]

I hope so, the alternatives are too sad. When it finally ends, I don't want to be mourning because Sherlock never lived up to his potential. Gah, that's a horrible burden to put on someone, isn't it? Well... sorry Sherlock! Deal with it! :D

Caution - a provocation ahead!

 

Define his potential first! :P

 

Why is it sad if he never has a romantic relationship? Because it's a standard? Because you think it's good for him?

As someone who never ever understood, why people are so keen to live in relationships* in general, I don't think it's sad. It is what it is. He has more time and brain capacity for things he loves - his work, his experiments, whatever.

 

I know the price. And I think he is (socially) intelligent enough to know it too. But it is not much a matter of choice. You are what you are.

 

* it changes a bit only if I happen to get a crush on a real person. But then I am under influence of hormones flooding my brain and it feels more like an intoxication than a life goal, and I just want it to go away ASAP. Luckily it happens like 1 x in a decade and is always hopeless from the start.

[Van Buren Supernova]

Bahaha.. I wanted to ask the same thing but restrain myself because it's Molly's thread. But well since J.P bites...

 

I agree that he doesn't need to be what people wants him to be.

Yes, I agree he has potentials, lots, tons of them. Let me define. He has brilliant mind, powerful observations, multi-talented, great understanding and logic, he has ability to pick up scattered information and construct something usable out of it. He has complicated but structured mind that he is able to see something out of almost nothing and defines something out of everything. He could be a hero, he could be good at blind justice, he could be so much, I'd say he could change the world to a certain extend if he put his mind to it.

 

But he doesn't have to. If he doesn't want to.

 

While J.P questions the expectation on romantic side, I question more on personality side. What John does, yes I know comes from a very caring heart, for his own good yadda yadda.... could be suffocating. Very. What Molly wants as well. They are good influences, yes. But on my PoV, they are almost invasive.

How if the table is turned? How if Sherlock expects John to be as smart and observant as him, burying his head and gather unlimited knowledge of everything? How if he expects Molly to be logical and stop using feelings?

Nope.

Nobody likes being told to be something that you are not.

 

He has his own pressures, he wants to be good at what he does and what he likes, and it's damn tasking. Why would everyone feels they have the right to demand him to be what he is not too?

 

However, I would say it could be a matter of choice. I don't see why not. And if Sherlock was a worse person, he would throw it at their faces. But maybe he is a much better person than what they thought he is, he endures and tries awkwardly, step by step, to be better to their standard. It may not seem enough, too slow, but maybe, it's so damn difficult for him because it's... just not his area, not what he is good at. He is out of place, he is learning, barely know how to walk in 'normal' world. And don't forget, from his point of view, he is not rude, he just too very honest and..well, lacking in feeling department. But that is him. It's different from being purposely rude.

Imhho. H stands for humble and honest. :p

[sittything]

I agree with you, Toby.  Him being "good" is still never going to be normal person normal.  Or maybe the most we can hope for him isn't good, but better?  Sherlock's own version of good?

 

I don't think it would be sad for him to never be in a relationship.  Canon Holmes fared just fine;  it's just my own greedy wish because I turn into a puddle of mush when Sherlock looks at Molly like this:

 

 

Back to Molly, though.  I'm excited to see what they do with her in Season 4.  I have a friend that just watched A Study in Pink the other day, and I have to keep myself in check not to spoil everything for her.  I want to tell her to not sell Molly short.  Don't believe the initial impression they try to feed us.  That Molly is so much more than just the mousy pathologist.

[sfmpco]

Well, Molly's reaction to "Miss Me" at the end of HLV was one of real fright.  Yes, Sherlock knows Moriarty is dead, but the bigger picture of Moriarty isn't.  He thinks he knows what "Moriarty" is going to do next?  Those words came out of the mouth of a man who was high and just awoke from an OD.  I think he's way over-confident and is about to get blind-sided.  11 months to go for S4....

[Arcadia]

Caution - a provocation ahead!

 

Define his potential first! :P

 

Why is it sad if he never has a romantic relationship? Because it's a standard? Because you think it's good for him?

As someone who never ever understood, why people are so keen to live in relationships* in general, I don't think it's sad. It is what it is. He has more time and brain capacity for things he loves - his work, his experiments, whatever.....

Bahaha.. I wanted to ask the same thing but restrain myself because it's Molly's thread. But well since J.P bites...

 

I agree that he doesn't need to be what people wants him to be.

Yes, I agree he has potentials, lots, tons of them. Let me define. He has brilliant mind, powerful observations, multi-talented, great understanding and logic, he has ability to pick up scattered information and construct something usable out of it. He has complicated but structured mind that he is able to see something out of almost nothing and defines something out of everything. He could be a hero, he could be good at blind justice, he could be so much, I'd say he could change the world to a certain extend if he put his mind to it.

 

But he doesn't have to. If he doesn't want to.

 

While J.P questions the expectation on romantic side, I question more on personality side. What John does, yes I know comes from a very caring heart, for his own good yadda yadda.... could be suffocating. Very. What Molly wants as well. They are good influences, yes. But on my PoV, they are almost invasive.

How if the table is turned? How if Sherlock expects John to be as smart and observant as him, burying his head and gather unlimited knowledge of everything? How if he expects Molly to be logical and stop using feelings?

Nope.

Nobody likes being told to be something that you are not.

 

He has his own pressures, he wants to be good at what he does and what he likes, and it's damn tasking. Why would everyone feels they have the right to demand him to be what he is not too?....

Oh, so you two want a fight, eh? Come on, bring it on, I can take ya!

First, though, may I just remind you what I was responding to:

 

 

Then he will remain a manchild and burden for others forever.

I don't think we're gonna see this. I really feel like a good chunk of this series is just watching Sherlock grow up. Has he had a few setbacks late season 3 into TAB? Sure. But I still think he's still on the path to becoming a good man.

 

So when I said "I hope so ... I don't want to be mourning because Sherlock never lived up to his potential," what I meant was; I want him to reach his potential of being a good man ... or at least a halfway decent man. Because if he grows up to be a bad man, what a waste of a human life. And what I mean by "bad" man, in this instance, is what Shadow said ... a burden to others. E.g., I don't want to see him as a drug-addled mess, stumbling from one catastrophe to another and waiting for those who still love him to bail him out; which is where we saw him last. I want to see him stand on his own two feet, making a contribution (even a small one) to the betterment of the world. That's what I think Watson meant by "hold yourself to a higher standard."

 

Other than that, though, I don't care if he's a world-class detective or a clerk in a convenience store, as long as he's still on the path to becoming a "good" man. And as for relationships ... he already has them. They don't have to be romantic. (Luckily for me, since I don't think it's ever gonna happen.)

 

Sooooo ... you still wanna fight about it? :P

 

(Sorry Molly!)

[Van Buren Supernova]

You call that a fight? :P

 

I get what you mean. Really.

I just want to insert Sherlock's POV for consideration. I was saying it's John's expectation that could be very suffocating, and Mycroft's, and Molly's. John does want Sherlock to be a hero in his story, and for someone like Sherlock, he tries to go with it instead of bolting, says that he is a good man, to me.

I'm really not arguing that John is being a good friend, and he needs John, and Molly. He lets them in and damn lucky to have them around.

But don't forget that he was 'alright' in his own world before them, they choose to come in and frown at what he is.

 

As for the last they saw him,

 

I believe in TAB thread Boton gives good explanation about Sherlock taking drug. Something along this line, switching to Sherlock's mind. He is in deep shit. He killed a man to 'save' his friends. A man who had been spreading misery around but no one else wants to get their hands dirty. I don't think he triumphs over what he did, in fact, he is devastated. He had lost, yet he believed that what he should do. And he is punished (which I think he also accepts that he deserves the punishment), on the way to six-month imminent death (he believes Mycroft) to do another deed that no one else is willing to get their hand dirty. He is in kamikaze plan, he had lost everything.

 

He thought he was good being alone, but John manages to get in. He thought it was good being with John and Mary, then reality kicks him. What is good then? He tries to ignore everything that weakens him, but apparently those things are not too bad (aka feelings), but they comes back and bite him hard. It's confusing. Then, the one thing he thinks he is good at, defeating Moriarty, came back 'alive'. He needs to understand and sort those things, he is confused and needs something to hold on to. At that moment nothing is right, nothing is clear for him.

Honestly, he believes he could control himself and get result with drug. At that point, I don't blame him and don't see him as addict.

And then they come and do what seems (to him) like blaming, accusing him, and interrupting what he is doing. They are not wrong, but is it too much if he gets defensive? Does it really make him "bad"? About being a burden, yes he could be a burden for people who love him. But again, don't forget he didn't choose to be loved at the first place.(which makes it sounds really sad though)

 

 

For the romantic, I agree with you and Toby.

[Shadow Dweller]

Running away instead of facing reality. When he plan to grow some spine? If it is supposed to be his last months, face it with dignity instead of playing ostrich like a coward, and maybe he will find a crack to slip away from the trap of death and emerge as a free man.

[Arcadia]

Well, I would say that if TAB showed us anything, it's that Sherlock (like most people) doesn't always have a very accurate view of himself. So for him to think he was good being alone, or that he can control the drugs ... meh. He's hardly the one to judge! In fact, I would venture to guess that part of his growth as a character is to discover that he isn't what he thinks he is.

 

Does that give other people the right to interfere in his life? Of course not; but he's the one who's letting them in, and letting them stay. So I'm willing to bet he sees the advantage to having them there.

 

You can be a burden to people even if they don't love you. Possibly even more of a burden, in fact.

 

But I don't think Moftiss will let him go too far in that direction. Too dark.

 

Oh man, I'm so sleepy I can't think anymore ... it's very possible I'm not making sense! :p Sooo......Laterz!!

[Amber§]

Maybe Sherlock, in a particular way, is already in love with Molly. He realises he needs her, but he doesn't want to admit it or maybe he doesn't understand that is actually in love with her (yes, that's a bit philosophic). As he doesn't want to admit that he needs John. I think Sherlock is kind of afraid to show people his weaknesses, he wants to show the others (and to himself) that is invulnerable.

He wants to show that he's strong and that he doesn't need anyone.

Maybe Sherlock and Molly won't never be engaged to each other, in effect it would be a too ordinary ending for a character like Sherlock, but I think they would carry on a relationship of love. Molly herself says that maybe people like Sherlock are her type and nobody is like Sherlock.

[Van Buren Supernova]

Running away instead of facing reality. When he plan to grow some spine? If it is supposed to be his last months, face it with dignity instead of playing ostrich like a coward, and maybe he will find a crack to slip away from the trap of death and emerge as a free man.

 

Maybe He is doing that, that could be his way of facing reality. After all,

he was waiting to face the devil.

 

 

It's that Sherlock (like most people) doesn't always have a very accurate view of himself. So for him to think he was good being alone, or that he can control the drugs ... meh. He's hardly the one to judge!

 

Yes, like most people. And most people thinks they are the one who has right to judge. I would say so, who has more right to judge someone than themselves?

However, it is limited to what someone does to himself, not to others.

 

 

 

You can be a burden to people even if they don't love you. Possibly even more of a burden, in fact.

 

If they go out and disturb others, yes. If someone jumps in front of train to end their life or jumps from building, yes. Those are selfish.

But Sherlock, I don't think so. He would harm himself, yes. I don't think he would harm others.

[Arcadia]

Running away instead of facing reality. When he plan to grow some spine? If it is supposed to be his last months, face it with dignity instead of playing ostrich like a coward, and maybe he will find a crack to slip away from the trap of death and emerge as a free man.

Exactly! Well, not exactly... I wouldn't put it that harshly. I think he has plenty of spine, but sometimes ... like a real boy ... he slips. That's why it's sad, to me, that Moftiss decided to make him high on the tarmac; because at the end of HLV I thought he was showing plenty of spine ... then they go and spoil it by implying that he was being cushioned by a fog of drugs. Oh heck, what am I saying ... I still think he was courageous and dignified on the tarmac, drugs or no! But I agree with you in principle, Shadow.

 

Maybe Sherlock, in a particular way, is already in love with Molly. He realises he needs her, but he doesn't want to admit it or maybe he doesn't understand that is actually in love with her (yes, that's a bit philosophic). As he doesn't want to admit that he needs John. I think Sherlock is kind of afraid to show people his weaknesses, he wants to show the others (and to himself) that is invulnerable.

He wants to show that he's strong and that he doesn't need anyone.

Maybe Sherlock and Molly won't never be engaged to each other, in effect it would be a too ordinary ending for a character like Sherlock, but I think they would carry on a relationship of love. Molly herself says that maybe people like Sherlock are her type and nobody is like Sherlock.

Oh, I think he already loves her, alright -- but as a friend, not a mate. But I think you're on the nose when you say he's afraid to show weakness, so showing even friendship is a real stretch for him. Showing romantic feelings ... somehow I can't picture him managing that. Plus, someone around here speculated that he thinks he's not the right one for Molly, and that sounds about right to me. I get the distinct impression at times that he doesn't think too highly of himself. (When he's not too busy thinking very highly of himself... :P )

 

 

It's that Sherlock (like most people) doesn't always have a very accurate view of himself. So for him to think he was good being alone, or that he can control the drugs ... meh. He's hardly the one to judge!

Yes, like most people. And most people thinks they are the one who has right to judge. I would say so, who has more right to judge someone than themselves?[/background][/font][/color]

However, it is limited to what someone does to himself, not to others.

 

Bad choice of words on my part. I didn't mean "judge" as in "pass judgement", I meant it as in "tell the difference." So let me rephrase my original statement: "It's that Sherlock (like most people) doesn't always have a very accurate view of himself. So for him to think he was good at being alone, or that he can control the drugs ... meh. How would he know?"

 

Better?

 

But since you brought it up: who has more right to judge someone than themselves?

 

I'm not sure. It sounds good to be non-judgmental about another person. But what about somebody like Magnussen? Is he the only one who has a right to judge himself? Sherlock didn't think so ... he not only judged Magnussen, he appointed himself jury and executioner. So I don't think "who has the right to judge" is very simple, actually. I think we humans, whether we like it or not, are all in this together, so the lines between what is someone's business and what isn't is pretty muddy. I'll have to think about this some more (but I bet I don't come up with a better answer ... I'll probably have to leave that to the poets and philosophers.... and Sherlock.)

 

 

You can be a burden to people even if they don't love you. Possibly even more of a burden, in fact.

If they go out and disturb others, yes. If someone jumps in front of train to end their life or jumps from building, yes. Those are selfish.

But Sherlock, I don't think so. He would harm himself, yes. I don't think he would harm others.

 

Says the man who "killed himself" by jumping from a building right in front of his best friend. And I'll bet Magnussen feels pretty thoroughly harmed right about now. No, I think Sherlock is quite capable of doing harm to others.

 

But what I mean by being a burden (or, I should say, what I think Shadow meant) ... is not taking care of himself. In both senses of the word; being careful with his own self, and fixing his own problems. Hopefully he's rather more capable of both than Mycroft gives him credit for; but Mikey hovers so close, it's hard to tell. John seems more willing to let Sherlock find his own path, which seems the wiser course to me.

 

Oh geez ... I just realized this is still Molly's thread. Maybe after dinner I'll see if I can move it somewhere more appropriate.

[sfmpco]

Even Moffat made the statement that of course Sherlock loves Molly, but he wasn't implying that Sherlock loved her in a romantic way.  More of a friendship, caring way.  Nevertheless, I think he'd have no problem doing whatever it took to keep her safe and being quite monstrous to anyone who tried to harm her, especially after all she's done for him.