Moffat's "we've missed it" statement...

[SherlockedCAMPer]

It's a sort of dramedy as I've heard used of the term combining drama and comedy.

[Arcadia]

I'd classify it as an adventure, like Raiders of the Lost Ark or The Mummy. Those usually have a good leavening of humor.

[J.P.]

But it's much more clever, layered, thought provoking and gut wrenching...

[Inge l-w]

As someone said above, please elucidate, J.P. ! I have been watching the episodes on a loop, because work interferes, like TOBY, so I cannot do marathon watching like SherlockedCamper, but after TEH, we see some very queer antics which do not belong in the Holmes world, ACD canon or otherwise. Sure, it's their franchise, but it's also their goose that laid the golden eggs.

At this point in time, thankfully BC's career seems to have taken a rather steady, reliable course, so I am dreaming of the day when SOMEONE buys out Hartswood with the help of PBS Masterpiece, and like Charles Chaplin, Mary Pickford and Douglas Fairbanks Sr. created United Artists, or Clint Eastwood created his own production company, and goes his own way without the twice%#%*#% creators!

[Arcadia]

But it's much more clever, layered, thought provoking and gut wrenching...

 

True ... although I think we fans actually read a lot more "thought provoking" into the episodes than were actually written into them. More and more I'm starting to attribute that to the acting ... I think our beloved cast are the ones projecting the layers onto the characters, and yes, that's pretty rare in an adventure type show. And I'll give you clever and gut wrenching!

 

Not to be boring about this but for anyone out there who hasn't seen the Buffy the Vampire Slayer series ... If you like clever, layered, thought provoking and gut wrenching, this is the show to watch. Just sayin'.

[Carol the Dabbler]

... after TEH, we see some very queer antics which do not belong in the Holmes world, ACD canon or otherwise. Sure, it's their franchise, but it's also their goose that laid the golden eggs.

... I am dreaming of the day when SOMEONE buys out Hartswood with the help of PBS Masterpiece, and like Charles Chaplin, Mary Pickford and Douglas Fairbanks Sr. created United Artists, or Clint Eastwood created his own production company, and goes his own way without the twice%#%*#% creators!

 

I agree regarding the golden eggs -- they need to be very careful not to push the envelope too far.  However, I believe they do need to push the envelope, or at least tweak it a good bit.  I mean, Jeremy Brett has already done the quintessential canon Holmes, so there's no point in revisiting that universe just yet.  One thing I love about Sherlock is that it's clearly a Holmes and Watson story -- but it's not a literal adaptation.

 

While I remain somewhat bewildered by Series 3 (and hope Moftiss have been able to get whatever that was out of their system), I seriously doubt that I'd enjoy the show nearly as much if it were handed over to a different writing team.  I might as well just go back to watching Elementary.

 

In my opinion, four people are indispensable to Sherlock.  Without Moffat, Gatiss, Cumberbatch, and Freeman, it would simply not be the same show.  While the contributions of Cumberbatch and Freeman are more obvious, I believe we also need Moffat (for outrageousness) and Gatiss (for quirkiness, and also to keep the lid on Moffat's outrageousness).

[Inge l-w]

Dear Carol,

I do so agree with you! Having never watched a single episode of Elementary or the entire modernised Dr Who Moffat monstrosity, I can offer no opinion on them! But I fervently hope that as good entrepreneurs they will also take heed of the Radio Times vote, which literally trashed S3, for several logical reasons. They may still own the franchise, but could they get more mainstream in S4? Please, pretty please!

[T.o.b.y]

 

But it's much more clever, layered, thought provoking and gut wrenching...

 

True ... although I think we fans actually read a lot more "thought provoking" into the episodes than were actually written into them. More and more I'm starting to attribute that to the acting ... I think our beloved cast is the one projecting the layers onto the characters, and yes, that's pretty rare in an adventure type show. And I'll give you clever and gut wrenching!

 

Not to be boring about this but for anyone out there hasn't seen the Buffy the Vampire Slayer series ... If you like clever, layered, thought provoking and gut wrenching, this is the show to watch. Just sayin'.

 

We can hardly expect the creators to overthink their series as much as we do... Of course there was less thought put into it than we invest in it, or no, I think it's more a question of what kind of thought. A writer, director or actor has to consider all sorts of details we probably aren't even aware of, while if they knew what inner workings we sometimes interpret into the characters, they'd probably have a jolly good laugh.

 

I do think Sherlock is exceptionally well written. The dialog is often brilliant and often beautiful, a lot of the plot twists are quite clever, and what I particularly admire is on how many layers the spirit of the original stories is transported into a modern context and how intelligently the old cases are transformed. I've tried to do this myself - take an old Doyle case and rewrite it in today's world - and I can tell you, it is incredibly hard.

 

As for Buffy, yeah, I liked that very much, at least in the beginning. But sorry, personally, I think Sherlock is leagues better...

[sfmpco]

Getting back to Mary and potential "we missed it" thing... Sherlock admits to John in the elevator up to Magnussen's apartment that he didn't know Janine until the wedding...

 

But Mary knew Janine and had been friends with her (fake friends), and obviously friends long enough to ask her to be a bridesmade.    So let's assume she knew Janine before Sherlock returned from the dead... because Mary and John got married about 6-1/2 months later.

 

By the time of the wedding, CAM knew Mary well enough to send her a wedding telegram,  and he likely even knew she was using Janine to get to him.  He and Mary probably had had some encounters which is why he could speak with such familiarity to her in the telegram.  

 

Anyhow, what I'm saying is, we haven't missed this bit either...

[SherlockedCAMPer]

Yes we need Gatiss to reign in Moffat and to add to the quirkiness. His tweets in response to Sherlock fans show the fun quirkiness. And I'm sure that Moftiss haven't perused this forum to see what all we caught.

 

Now to work on getting the rest of my Sherlock brain back from this homeschool conference & mini school reunion from my uni days (saw 7 people from there so far today).

[Carol the Dabbler]

The thing is, assuming that we actually have missed something, we're not likely to have a brainstorm just because Moftiss tell us we've missed something.  One of them recently said that they are often amazed at what the fans obsess over, whereas the two of them consider certain other things to be far more significant.  Well, vice versa applies too.  They may think we overlooked something, whereas we noticed it but didn't think it was sufficiently interesting or important to spend much time on.  Even if they actually tell us what they were talking about this time, we may still not think it was all that big a deal.

 

[sfmpco]

Somehow we won't have missed it.

 

[Arcadia]

Dear Carol,

I do so agree with you! Having never watched a single episode of Elementary or the entire modernised Dr Who Moffat monstrosity, I can offer no opinion on them! But I fervently hope that as good entrepreneurs they will also take heed of the Radio Times vote, which literally trashed S3, for several logical reasons. They may still own the franchise, but could they get more mainstream in S4? Please, pretty please!

 

Eeeeeek!!!!! No, no! :D One thing I love about this show is that it ISN'T mainstream!

 

But I agree, I don't want it to get so experimental that it's weird. I don't think there's much danger of that, though, I think it's more likely that they will either run out of fresh ideas, or lose enthusiasm. Hopefully they'll recognize when that happens and end on a high note. (Hmmmm ... in the history of television, has that ever happened? Even Buffy went on a season too long....)

 

I do think Sherlock is exceptionally well written. The dialog is often brilliant and often beautiful, a lot of the plot twists are quite clever, and what I particularly admire is on how many layers the spirit of the original stories is transported into a modern context and how intelligently the old cases are transformed. I've tried to do this myself - take an old Doyle case and rewrite it in today's world - and I can tell you, it is incredibly hard.

 

Oh, I agree. It's also beautifully filmed and acted. It really is a special show, helped along by the fact that there isn't much of it. :(  I've never seen anything like it, really.

 

As for Buffy, yeah, I liked that very much, at least in the beginning. But sorry, personally, I think Sherlock is leagues better...

 

Leagues, huh? I may have to challenge you to a duel, then.... :D I actually couldn't choose between them, except that I'm more obsessed about the Sherlock characters than I ever was about the Buffy characters. (Well, okay, Spike ... )  But Joss Whedon is a scriptwriting god, and thou shalt not diss my gods!   

 

The thing is, assuming that we actually have missed something, we're not likely to have a brainstorm just because Moftiss tell us we've missed something.  One of them recently said that they are often amazed at what the fans obsess over, whereas the two of them consider certain other things to be far more significant.  Well, vice versa applies too.  They may think we overlooked something, whereas we noticed it but didn't think it was sufficiently interesting or important to spend much time on.  Even if they actually tell us what they were talking about this time, we may still not think it was all that big a deal.

Yeah, you tell 'em, Carol! What do they know! :D

 

I really hope someone at the convention -- several someones, in fact! As many as it takes to get an answer! -- ask what it was we supposedly missed in TRF.

[Carol the Dabbler]

They may still own the franchise, but could they get more mainstream in S4? Please, pretty please!

 

Eeeeeek!!!!! No, no! :D One thing I love about this show is that it ISN'T mainstream!

 

If I may defend Inge's honor, I believe she meant more like Series 1 and 2 (please correct me if I'm wrong about that, Inge). Surely Sherlock is sufficiently sui generis that it's allowed to define its own "mainstream"?

 

I really hope someone at the convention -- several someones, in fact! As many as it takes to get an answer! -- ask what it was we supposedly missed in TRF.

Right on, Sister!!!     

 

[Arcadia]

Surely Sherlock is sufficiently sui generis that it's allowed to define its own "mainstream"?

 

Whu...?  Is that even possible? :p

 

 

[Inge l-w]

Dear Carol, you are a princess among moderators (not to forget ducks!)

I did mean MORE Sherlock Holmes, or more Sherlock pre S3 madness! My thoughts tend to coincide with dear Caya's on wanting the incomparable pair of thrill-seeking investigators to go on doing what they so brilliantly pulled off in S1 and S2, with the possible exception of TRF, although Caya's favourite AoO author , plaidadder, has written brilliant exposes on what is wrong with S3, all of which I have downloaded and read carefully over and over. You could say, it ain't Sherlock without his faithful Boswell ( canon) or his blogger ( modern version) by his side! Thanks for the thumbs-up, have a (after all, you and dear Arcadia first showed me how to).

[sfmpco]

Janine.

 

She did not out Sherlock as being gay to the press, and she could have gone that route if she really wanted to hurt him.  Instead she chose to out him as being straight, and not only straight but a bit of a hound dog with some sexual fetishes (like the hat).

 

Although they didn't have sex, they did have a bit of something going on in the bathroom when both were in a state of semi-undress or complete undress and when both knew that John was in the other room and could hear them perfectly.

 

Just saying we didn't miss that bit either.

 

[Inge l-w]

In the Janine thread, started by Arcadia, I think it has been posited that she could be a Moriarty, so her actions in HLV would be perfectly congruent with any master plan yet to develop in S4.

And the more I have been thinking about not-canon compliant, if it is to turn into a sitcom, could the creators just keep the baby and conveniently dispose of Mary? At least, we could have some fun along with the mysteries and crime solving, as Dr Watson would probably have to turn to his elusive sister Harriet ( did not even come to the wedding) and his best friend. A baby at 221B could lead to sensory overload and justify dear sfmpco's and SherlockedCampers relevant threads, not to mention the continued involvement of the Holmes' parents and an unwilling 'Uncle Mycroft'.

[J.P.]

As someone said above, please elucidate, J.P. 

Which of my posts do you mean here?

[Inge l-w]

Dear J.P., the one about its being thought-provoking (it's not, it's a major fan fiction project which has earned its creators a goodly profit), and gut-wrenching, because it is so exaggerated and over-the-top in everything that it becomes a pastiche of itself.

[sfmpco]

It will be something seemingly insignificant or bizarre... but we still won't have missed it.

[J.P.]

Again, the BBC version is my canon so to say. 

 

Thought provoking? Because it addresses many of my own problems. Aside of not being male, a genius detective and an exotic looking creature - I'm so much like Sherlock that it hurts. Reading what some people wrote about him I learned more useful stuff than from diverse therapists in last few years. This damned show is the most personal piece of filmmaking that ever crossed my way. 

 

Gut wrenching - for the same reason. 

 

Layered? Because you have often more than one interpretation that actually works (like "grieving/not grieving Sherlock" in Scandal). And you never know if what you think you see is what it really is. 

 

It might be a just another profit project, but still it managed to tickle all the right receptors in my brain. Made me laugh, made me wail like a baby. Made me make stuff and feel alive again.

 

Generally - thought provoking is something that is quite individual. If you look close enough you might find food for thought everywhere. You just need a reason to look closer, and that reason is mostly something that engages you emotionally. 

 

BTW, once I found Angel from Buffy universe a very interesting character, but lost interest very soon. Too many episodes also means that the good stuff gets diluted by white noise. Still I think he had a potential that wasn't fully exploited.

 

Game of Thrones is even more complex when it comes to characters and surprises, and has some outstanding acting, but it's also quite hard (for me) to actually identify myself with anyone over there. At least it lost in confrontation with Sherlock.  ^_^

[Carol the Dabbler]

Dear J.P., the one about its being thought-provoking (it's not, it's a major fan fiction project which has earned its creators a goodly profit), and gut-wrenching, because it is so exaggerated and over-the-top in everything that it becomes a pastiche of itself.

 

Are you saying that a show cannot be both thought-provoking and a profit-making fan project?  (I cannot disagree with any of those descriptions with regard to Sherlock.)  That it cannot be both gut-wrenching and exaggerated or over-the-top?  I agree that the show is sometimes exaggerated or over-the-top, but that doesn't stop it from wrenching my gut at other times (or possibly even at the same time).

[SherlockedCAMPer]

I find, depending on age, that it can be at least somewhat thought-provoking.  My son loves TSOT and we have had discussions on getting drunk and why it's not really worth it because of the drunk Sherlock scenes. It was something for him to think about before we realized he was indeed allergic to alcohol.  Also all of the discussion we have on each episode kind of shows that it is thought-provoking.  Because some of the stuff that Moftiss comes up with causes us annoyance, we come up with several thoughts about said annoyances therefore technically thought-provoking.  They have several thoughts that cause us annoyance.

 

I also agree that there are exaggerated parts, over-the-top parts, and gut-wrenching parts (the fall part of TRF in particular fits the last one).

[Arcadia]

Janine.....Although they didn't have sex, they did have a bit of something going on in the bathroom when both were in a state of semi-undress or complete undress and when both knew that John was in the other room and could hear them perfectly.

 

Just saying we didn't miss that bit either.

No, I don't think anyone missed that! And I still giggle when I think about John's reaction.

 

Again, the BBC version is my canon so to say. 

 

Thought provoking? Because it addresses many of my own problems. Aside of not being male, a genius detective and an exotic looking creature - I'm so much like Sherlock that it hurts. Reading what some people wrote about him I learned more useful stuff than from diverse therapists in last few years. This damned show is the most personal piece of filmmaking that ever crossed my way. 

 

Gut wrenching - for the same reason. 

 

Layered? Because you have often more than one interpretation that actually works (like "grieving/not grieving Sherlock" in Scandal). And you never know if what you think you see is what it really is. 

 

It might be a just another profit project, but still it managed to tickle all the right receptors in my brain. Made me laugh, made me wail like a baby. Made me make stuff and feel alive again.

 

Generally - thought provoking is something that is quite individual. If you look close enough you might find food for thought everywhere. You just need a reason to look closer, and that reason is mostly something that engages you emotionally.

I totally agree with all of this. There's something about this show that makes a deep emotional connection with some of us, isn't there? And isn't that an amazing thing to say about a TV show?

 

BTW, once I found Angel from Buffy universe a very interesting character, but lost interest very soon. Too many episodes also means that the good stuff gets diluted by white noise. Still I think he had a potential that wasn't fully exploited....  ^_^

Alas, I'm afraid that may be one of the things that makes Sherlock so special; there's so little of it! Like red diamonds.