Sherlock (the BBC character)

[Pseudonym]

Every morning when he wakes up he has to figure out who the hell this 'John' bloke is. :D Either that or he has it tattooed on him like in Memento. 

[J.P.]

Actually I meant: from HLV to the end of the show. He solves the little ones but constantly fails on the important ones. :P Middle age that comes to us all?

[Carol the Dabbler]

Sorry, I misread your previous post. But yes, I agree for the most part.

 

Looking at the hits vs the misses, I think he's still doing fine on the cases that do not concern him personally, including Culverton Smith (though he took a rather extreme approach with that one, due to the personal component of "saving John Watson"). But his insights seem to fail him just about every time when he has a personal interest -- even, oddly enough, when he doesn't yet know that he has a personal interest, as with his initial handling of A. J.

 

So I don't necessarily think he's gone stupid on us. It's just that he had no real personal involvement in the cases that we saw prior to HLV. True, he seemed to take a rather personal interest in his dealings with Moriarty, but that was more of an intellectual game for him.

[Arcadia]

Hang on ... which cases were there after HLV? The "big" one in T6T wasn't really a mystery to be solved, except for the identity of Amo, which he figured out. I view his taunting of Norbury and the resulting disaster as a thing separate from solving a case, I guess; that was a failure of personality, not of detection. Smith, he worked out the mystery part in grand style. He solved Eurus' puzzle, I don't think there was any other detecting in that episode ... John told him Eurus existed, all Sherlock had to do was trick Mycroft into admitting it.

 

So maybe it's not that's he's slipping as a detective, but that he's expanding into areas that he's not really qualified to dabble in...? Actually, I thought that was one of the points of T6T ... Sherlock may be a genius detective, but he's not a professional "special operative," like Mary and AJ were. I've always maintained that his failure in HLV wasn't a failure to stop CAM -- he did -- but the manner in which he did it. Now that I think of it, there wasn't much for him to detect in that episode, either. Once Mary shot him, everything was revealed. It was a blackmail case; rather beneath his usual standards, one would think. But he tried to handle the situation himself instead of turning to a real professional.

 

Thoughts?

[J.P.]

In TST he thought the whole mystery is about the Pearl and Moriarty's post mortem game.

He didn't realize that Faith is not what she pretended to.

 

[Arcadia]

Well, that's true. I guess I don't think AJ's identity is actually a mystery, since he reveals it - and his purpose - almost as soon as Sherlock confronts him. But I get your point; Sherlock was so focused on Moriarty that he failed to realize there might be something else going on. But I also still think the "cases" themselves are somewhat out of his area of expertise, only he wouldn't admit it.

For example, this whole business of him being Mary's protector ... that's a job for a bodyguard, not a detective. I thought that was supposed to be another example of Sherlock getting a bit puffed up about himself ... he took down CAM and got away with it, now he thinks he can take on anyone ... ? Maybe that's just what I want to think is going on, in order to try and like T6T a little better. Because I really loathe the idea of Sherlock being all secret agent-y on top of everything else. Always have, always will. I want him to be unique, not some James Bond clone.

[gerry]

So I don't necessarily think he's gone stupid on us. It's just that he had no real personal involvement in the cases that we saw prior to HLV. True, he seemed to take a rather personal interest in his dealings with Moriarty, but that was more of an intellectual game for him.

I don't know if I agree. Sherlock took a personal interest in Irene in ASIB and in TGG he took a personal interest because of Moriarty and John being strapped to the bomb at the end. Of course, in TRF he faked his death to take down Moriarty to save his friends. So he's taken a personal interest in several cases before HLV though yes some of which were as a result of Moriarty but Sherlock's main objective was something about those closest to him. The main difference to me is how extreme his reactions to the situations became in season 3 and 4 like murdering CAM or harming himself to save John in TLD. Seemed like Moftiss kept trying to top the previous villians which lead to more and more extreme plots.

[Van Buren Supernova]

Maybe it goes with Sherlock being closer to John, that he values their relationship more S3 and up.

Isn't caring makes people do stupid things and emotion clouds judgement?

 

That, and in reality, to me, S4 is not as well written as the rest because they only have one year? And the writers are probably influenced by high expectations. Bigger doesn't always mean better, they think they have the burden of telling the third Holmes story in extravagant way. There are a lot of better ways without needing so, a lot, as I learn from another humble brilliant series.

I guess sometimes having only 3 episodes per season limits the ability to have a satisfying slow burn, so they have to go with impact, and forego important things along the way for the sake of workable plot.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Seemed like Moftiss kept trying to top the previous villians which lead to more and more extreme plots.

 

No argument there!  I do wish they'd calm back down a little, and settle for merely being excellent, rather than more "exciting."

[J.P.]

I suspect it comes with the writing a show season-wise, without a quite detailed outline for the whole story. They don't do it for some reason, maybe because they don't know how many seasons will come, if any. I clearly remember Moftiss said they had a general outline for S4 and S5. I can also recall them saying something about how they have written themselves into a corner with the pool scene and the end of S1 and had to work out a soultion. (sadly it's not on Ariane's transcript website)

 

They started too good. …P

[Pseudonym]

Though with how over-crowded season 4 felt I wouldn't be surprised if it did contain their outlines for both season 4 and 5. :(

[J.P.]

Exactly.

[gerry]

 

 

Seemed like Moftiss kept trying to top the previous villians which lead to more and more extreme plots.

No argument there! I do wish they'd calm back down a little, and settle for merely being excellent, rather than more "exciting."

Agreed but I also think this just reflects Moffat's style. In interviews, he comes off as hyperbolic, OTT and full of brash uncommon opinions. In his Sherlock writing there were signs of the extreme as early as ASIB with Irene being a dom who greets strangers naked and was about to be beheaded at the end. It's not a surprise that most of the extreme characterizations and plots were in episodes written by him: murdering CAM, Mary being an assassin, Mary shooting Sherlock, the way Sherlock saved John in TLD, Molly slapping Sherlock 3 times, even the never ending best man speech was OTT. I wouldn't be suprised if the extreme nature of TFP was his idea even though it was cowritten by Gatiss. Gatiss likes the Bond style too but his solo scripts are more grounded. Stephen Thompson's scripts were actually the most balanced episodes (TRF and TSOT) even if not the best (thinking of TBB there).

[Arcadia]

Moffat even said something like "we have to keep topping ourselves". I remember rolling my eyes.

 

There's a lot of subtle emotion tucked into the bombast, though. I give him credit for that.

[gerry]

I'm not sure I've read any interviews where Moffat offered any underlying subtleties but I'm sure I've missed some since I have difficulty finishing some of the ones I have read!

[Arcadia]

Oh, I didn't mean his interviews, I meant the episodes he wrote. ASiB and HLV, specifically; there's a lot of emotional undercurrents in those. Also emotional tidal waves.

[Van Buren Supernova]

Oh, I didn't mean his interviews, I meant the episodes he wrote. ASiB and HLV, specifically; there's a lot of emotional undercurrents in those. Also emotional tidal waves.

With two arguably best scenes. Mind-Palace-freak-out and Agent-out-of-window.

Have we talked about Sherlock's best scenes before?

[Arcadia]

I'm sure we've mentioned them at various times, but do you mean, is there a specific thread for that? I don't think so.

 

If by best, you mean the best scenes with Sherlock in them, then those two are high on my list.

 

If by best, you mean Sherlock being his best ... then, uh, those two are high on my list. :d

[gerry]

I didn't really find a lot of emotional undercurrents I believed in HLV. I despised the scene where Sherlock told John that it was almost inevitable for him to find an assassin because his love of danger to justify her lying. It was twisted and ridiculous so if that's the emotional undecurrents you're talking about, I would never give him credit for that. Or the murdering of CAM. I really really dislike just about everything in that episode except for Janine getting back at Sherlock so I won't watch it again.

 

Also the whole Irene/Sherlock attraction was disturbing to me so I didn't like that part of ASIB either. Don't even get me started on why she had to be a gay dom to begin with.

 

Basically the only part of Moffat's writing I appreciate is his writing of Sherlock and John's friendship which is why the only episode of his I really like is ASIP which is all about establishing their friendship. Everything else he writes generally feels wrong to me.

[T.o.b.y]

 

Oh, I didn't mean his interviews, I meant the episodes he wrote. ASiB and HLV, specifically; there's a lot of emotional undercurrents in those. Also emotional tidal waves.

With two arguably best scenes. Mind-Palace-freak-out and Agent-out-of-window.

Have we talked about Sherlock's best scenes before?

 

 

We've discussed our favorite scenes on the show in general, but not favorite Sherlock scenes specifically as far as I know.

 

Gosh, where would I begin with mine? I love Sherlock, I like pretty much every moment with him. Hmmm... Off the bat, the first thing that comes to my mind is his leaving the wedding at the end of The Sign of Three. The pool scene in The Great Game is a favorite with me in so many ways. I love how he analyzes his own near-murder in His Last Vow. I love how he handles John and his mess of regrets and bitterness and lingering resentment towards the end of The Lying Detective.

 

I am also one of the few people who really likes the scene where he shoots Magnussen. "I am not a hero - I am a high-functioning sociopath. Merry Christmas" and bam. Wonderful. Yeah, I know, my taste is a bit macabre. But hey, it's only fiction.

 

Oh, I know - The Great Game, the "crying at people's bedsides" scene where he tells John heroes don't exist. I LOVE that one. That's the one that really made fall in love with Sherlock (The Great Game was the first episode I ever saw and it's still my favorite over all).

[Arcadia]

I think my favorite of all is still the hat deduction. Yeah, pretty much all of TLD. Pretty much all of Reichenbach. Really, I just love every scene he's in. :d

[Pseudonym]

The hat deduction? (Forgive me for being slow, my brain is fried today, can't seem to stop scowling with stress.) I think a lot of the scenes in SIP are my favourite. The way he bamboozles John in the lab, the way he explains it all in the cab, and I really love the little things, like when John starts giggling after they chase down the cab and Sherlock can't figure out whether John is laughing at him and doesn't know whether to be affronted or not. I think it says a lot about how defensive he is this early on and how he has been mocked in the past. 

 

Eurgh, I'm going to stumble off for a cup of coffee and hope it makes my head stop pounding, wish me luck that I won't keel over somewhere along the way and not be found for days. Especially since it's just started raining. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

I didn't really find a lot of emotional undercurrents I believed in HLV. I despised the scene where Sherlock told John that it was almost inevitable for him to find an assassin because his love of danger to justify her lying. It was twisted and ridiculous

I'll definitely agree with you on that scene!  John clearly thrives on having something meaningful to do, and is not repelled by danger -- hey, he's an army doctor!  But that doesn't mean he seeks out danger (or "dangerous people") as such.  Or that he deserves being deceived.

 

Also the whole Irene/Sherlock attraction was disturbing to me so I didn't like that part of ASIB either. Don't even get me started on why she had to be a gay dom to begin with.

Or why they needed a scene with her totally naked.  (Well, except for the shoes.)  Huge chunks of that episode strike me as basically gratuitous.

 

Basically the only part of Moffat's writing I appreciate is his writing of Sherlock and John's friendship which is why the only episode of his I really like is ASIP which is all about establishing their friendship. Everything else he writes generally feels wrong to me.

 

I won't say everything else.  But that's my favorite of his episodes, yeah.  I'm gradually appreciating TLD (just ignore Culverton Smith, and it's not half bad), but ASiP is among my favorite episodes overall.

 

I am also one of the few people who really likes the scene where he shoots Magnussen. "I am not a hero - I am a high-functioning sociopath. Merry Christmas" and bam. Wonderful. Yeah, I know, my taste is a bit macabre. But hey, it's only fiction.

 

That scene is beautifully constructed.  Sherlock knows he's doing something wrong, but his only alternatives are even wronger, so he doesn't dilly-dally, he just blatantly does what he has to do.  Sort of a heroic tragedy, I guess.

 

The hat deduction?

I assume that was a reference to the scene in The Empty Hearse, where the train guy had left his knitted hat in Sherlock's flat, and Sherlock and Mycroft deduce what sort of person owned the hat.

 

It was a take-off, by the way, on a somewhat similar scene in, I believe, The Blue Carbuncle.

[Arcadia]

 

I didn't really find a lot of emotional undercurrents I believed in HLV. I despised the scene where Sherlock told John that it was almost inevitable for him to find an assassin because his love of danger to justify her lying. It was twisted and ridiculous

I'll definitely agree with you on that scene!  John clearly thrives on having something meaningful to do, and is not repelled by danger -- hey, he's an army doctor!  But that doesn't mean he seeks out danger (or "dangerous people") as such.  Or that he deserves being deceived.

 

Quite right, but I'd hardly refer to any part of that scene as an undercurrent, that's clearly one of the over-the-top tidal waves. No, I was thinking more about things like John's reaction to discovering Sherlock has a girlfriend -- shock? Jealousy? Amusement? A bit of pride? :D Or Sherlock's reaction when Janine says they could have been friends. Or Mary's reaction throughout ... what IS she thinking? And especially the farewell at the airport ... gah, the feels! 

 

 

Also the whole Irene/Sherlock attraction was disturbing to me so I didn't like that part of ASIB either. Don't even get me started on why she had to be a gay dom to begin with.

Or why they needed a scene with her totally naked.  (Well, except for the shoes.)  Huge chunks of that episode strike me as basically gratuitous.

 

Yeah, the gay dom is a bit much, especially since they seemed to promptly forget she was gay. But which other scenes did you find gratuitous, Carol? I really can't think of anything else. I love the sparring between them when Sherlock's trying to figure out her passcode, think that's brilliant. They're on such different pages. Or at least Sherlock pretends to be, I'm never sure.

 

 

The hat deduction?

I assume that was a reference to the scene in The Empty Hearse, where the train guy had left his knitted hat in Sherlock's flat, and Sherlock and Mycroft deduce what sort of person owned the hat.

Yep, that.

[gerry]

 

I didn't really find a lot of emotional undercurrents I believed in HLV. I despised the scene where Sherlock told John that it was almost inevitable for him to find an assassin because his love of danger to justify her lying. It was twisted and ridiculous

I'll definitely agree with you on that scene! John clearly thrives on having something meaningful to do, and is not repelled by danger -- hey, he's an army doctor! But that doesn't mean he seeks out danger (or "dangerous people") as such. Or that he deserves being deceived.

Really given his attitude (maybe disillusioned or ambivalent) towards Mary after the revelation shows how much it hurt him and how little he really trusted her. It kind of bothered me that Gatiss wrote it that way anyway in TST but then Moffat wrote it so OTT grief for John in the next episode where he said that Mary made him be a better man or whatever it was. I wouldn't have thought he felt that way given the previous episode but this is the type of thing that I meant by Moffat writing things that feel wrong to me.

 

 

Also the whole Irene/Sherlock attraction was disturbing to me so I didn't like that part of ASIB either. Don't even get me started on why she had to be a gay dom to begin with.

Or why they needed a scene with her totally naked. (Well, except for the shoes.) Huge chunks of that episode strike me as basically gratuitous.

Completely agree. It did come off like superfluous male fantasy meets Sherlock. These are the chunks I found gratuitous, were these the ones you were thinking of?: her fake death, the xmas scene was unnecessarily mean, Sherlock showing up to Buckingham Palace naked underneath the sheet while refusing to put pants on and the slapstick punching Sherlock?

 

 

Basically the only part of Moffat's writing I appreciate is his writing of Sherlock and John's friendship which is why the only episode of his I really like is ASIP which is all about establishing their friendship. Everything else he writes generally feels wrong to me.

I won't say everything else. But that's my favorite of his episodes, yeah. I'm gradually appreciating TLD (just ignore Culverton Smith, and it's not half bad), but ASiP is among my favorite episodes overall

There was a lot of of TLD I liked because of the John/Sherlock scenes and I loved the scenes at the end when Sherlock talks about being afraid of dying. Trying to figure out how much of that was Sherlock's real feelings versus playing Smith was interesting to me.

 

Probably hyperbolic but what I meant by everything else are the other character scenes/relationships. I mentioned the John/Mary relationship and Irene/Sherlock above but I also usually dislike his writing of Molly/Sherlock and Mary/Sherlock and when he made Mrs Hudson a former stripper turned millionaire. Basically his writing of most female characters or relationships. Janine and Sally are the only exceptions I can think of.