Sherlock (the BBC character)

[J.P.]

Talking about tests - it reminds me of a friend's son who by a psychological test was supposed to draw a tree (how the evaluation should work is another thing) and he drew a palm.

 

Ah, and sorry for the genius-ness thing. My tongues got confuzzled. :P :P

[gerry]

My current theory is that Mycroft is considered both more intelligent and more mature because he is more (for lack of a far better word) normal. He answers IQ tests the way they're supposed to be answered. He behaves in socially-acceptable ways. He is the more socialized of the two.... (The fact that he often uses his empathy to target people's soft spots may be unfortunate, but he does seem to be improving.)

I get the sense what you're getting at is Sherlock isn't less mature but just more rebellious? I do get the sense that Sherlock knows all of the socially acceptable ways of communication and behavior but just chooses something else and I do associate rebellion with younger generally less mature people, usually people in their teens/twenties. At some point don't you "grow out" of rebellion when you add more responsibility in your life as you get older?

 

I think Sherlock is more empathetic, and therefore has a greater capacity for being considerate.

CAM and John's former girlfriends probably wouldn't consider Sherlock considerate. He may have the capacity for it but I'm not sure how often Sherlock exercises it which is part of the reason I wouldn't call Sherlock mature.

 

Yowch.

My response wasn't intended to be perfunctory. That's what I get for posting quickly in between phone calls at work! I do stand by the general point I was trying to express which was that we all have baser impulses to say and do things we shouldn't but with maturity you realize why you shouldn't be doing and saying them.

 

I do associate the term adult with maturity but maybe the show intended a different association with that line?

[Carol the Dabbler]

No, I didn't mean to say that Sherlock is rebellious, more like he interprets things in the way that makes logical sense to him, which isn't always the traditional or "proper" way that Mycroft would choose.

 

I agree that Sherlock has often acted inconsiderately in the past. But he does have the potential to be considerste, and I think he's moving in that direction.

[Arcadia]

 

At some point don't you "grow out" of rebellion when you add more responsibility in your life as you get older? 

 

One would hope so, but alas, it is not always true. Or yay! it's not always true, I'm not sure which. :d

[SherlockedCAMPer]

 

At some point don't you "grow out" of rebellion when you add more responsibility in your life as you get older?

One would hope so, but alas, it is not always true. Or yay! it's not always true, I'm not sure which. :d

Probably depends on how the person is behaving and the reason for it. A person purposely trying to be funny to cheer someone up or to get a case solved might be ok again depending on how it's done. Doing it for the sake of doing it, not so much.

[Pseudonym]

 

who wouldn't get a bit of a kick out of just saying whatever they want to people without bothering with a filter?

Mature empathetic adults who treat people with respect?

 

 

My entire point is that that is why people don't do it. But the fact that Sherlock does and doesn't give a damn is quite cathartic - it's the reason lines like 'don't speak out loud, you lower the IQ of the entire street' get quoted so much. Who hasn't had to work with an idiot at some point and wanted to say something like that? The difference is that, being mature and empathetic, we don't. He might take it too far, but Sherlock can get away with saying things everyone else is just thinking. 

 

In real life terms - I used to work in a call centre, and there were times you'd be sitting there shaking with rage whilst a completely unreasonable customer yelled down the phone at you. But you couldn't answer the way you wanted because you'd get fired. But every now and then someone would snap, and say all the things everyone else wanted to but couldn't. And it was brilliant. So that is what I mean, how freeing it would be to be confronted with those types of people and just say exactly what you wanted with no filter and no fear of repercussions. 

[SherlockedCAMPer]

 

 

who wouldn't get a bit of a kick out of just saying whatever they want to people without bothering with a filter?

Mature empathetic adults who treat people with respect?

My entire point is that that is why people don't do it. But the fact that Sherlock does and doesn't give a damn is quite cathartic - it's the reason lines like 'don't speak out loud, you lower the IQ of the entire street' get quoted so much. Who hasn't had to work with an idiot at some point and wanted to say something like that? The difference is that, being mature and empathetic, we don't. He might take it too far, but Sherlock can get away with saying things everyone else is just thinking.

 

In real life terms - I used to work in a call centre, and there were times you'd be sitting there shaking with rage whilst a completely unreasonable customer yelled down the phone at you. But you couldn't answer the way you wanted because you'd get fired. But every now and then someone would snap, and say all the things everyone else wanted to but couldn't. And it was brilliant. So that is what I mean, how freeing it would be to be confronted with those types of people and just say exactly what you wanted with no filter and no fear of repercussions.

I used to work in a call center as well and had a customer sass back at me. She was worse than the 3 year olds that I knew. I determined that if she had kids, she gave them full permission to sass to her whenever they wanted and she couldn't stop it because they could say we heard you doing it.

[Arcadia]

Yup, been there too. That's why I always try my damnedest to be nice to people in customer service, even when they're the ones being the idiots ... because I know what kind of crap they have to take sometimes. I wait til I'm off the phone, then I trash talk 'em. :p

[Van Buren Supernova]

Oh dear, if I had to answer that general knowledge about Spock, I would fail miserable. You sure that is general knowledge? :P I didn’t even know what is a Spock until a year ago. I thought that is so called imperfection on the skin, wait.. that is speck..maybe spock is plural or color variety…hmm…

 

My take on regarding Sherlock and maturity.

I was also left wondering why Mummy Holmes said that, but then didn’t feel the need to dispute that much, because it’s combination of: she said it mostly on that very moment, I don’t really trust her testimonial anyway, and it could be true in certain way.

 

Maybe it depends on maturity definition to each of us.

 

Yah, shooting to the wall, taking drug, are not exactly making a good case for Sherlock. But, but! That is not all Sherlock is.

 

He is taking drugs. Yes, I hate that. But I also believe that he knows what he is doing. I know a couple of people in my life who manage their addictions. Not drugs, but alcohol and gambling. They like to do those, but they are aware of their limits and do that without the dangerous repercussion and know when to stop themselves. Some say that is not considered addiction, I’d say it’s controlled addiction, because I see how much they love doing those things, but since they are responsible adults, they limit themselves. Well, of course, those money spent are better allocated for something else, but that is their leisure, they don’t dig into their reserve or their kid’s college fund, or pawning things to afford them, it’s the spare money that many other people use to travel, buy stuffs etc.

 

So, that’s how I see Sherlock. He has..that, professional curiosity.

 

Regarding saying whatever they want to people without bothering to filter. I agree, it’s not good. But is it immature? Or is it a personality trait?

 

Sherlock is being honest and sometimes doesn’t stop to think whether what he says is socially good or not. To be fair, he does that in situation when he has to socialize, whether someone comes to the house or when he is investigating a case or doing a task. While he is capable to be polite, these are mostly situations where he doesn’t feel the need to, when his personal place is being invaded or when he is questioning possible perpetrators or intelligence of authority, which in his eyes, should exercise certain level of acceptable intelligence to be put in their positions that makes him frustrated when they are not. It could be maddening when people are not qualified for the position they have. 

 

Imho, I’d rather meet someone like Sherlock when I know where he really stands even if he insults me in the face, than getting common pleasantries that may or may not be true behind me.

Well, of course, it’s nice to be respectful in all kind of situations, that’s what some people are naturally wired for, but not all. Remember what is easy for some may be difficult for others. Those who are good in being respectful and always say the right things may find it difficult when they have to be honest, and vice versa. 

It’s just a weakness/strength depends on which side you see it from.

 

Personally, I tend to be wary of people who are always nice, respectful and polite. Trust issue. But I certainly appreciate those who are genuine, it’s rare quality. Again. It’s rare, and it would be just a disappointment to expect that most people are capable to be like that. So I’d only choose genuinely nice or genuinely honest. Masking is not necessary to me, politeness means nothing if it’s not genuine, and incapable of bringing those naturally and autopilot doesn’t mean immature. To me.

 

As for shooting wall etc, yah, that is not mature, I can’t argue that. :P As said, growing old in inevitable, but growing up is optional. I can’t speak for others, but for myself, I do that all the times. Not shooting wall, but others, like jumping around the house, climbing a tree, running barefoot on quiet beach or wood like my butt is burning, scolding my stuff animals or talking to my kitchen appliances or ransacking the house when I feel like it (only to painstakingly tidying it up after) when I feel something, like happy, angry, sad, and thought no one is looking. Why not? As long as my kneecaps don’t give way and I don’t harm others.

 

Imo, mature is responsible to one self, independent, and do what you require to do professionally. Sherlock fends for himself, he is definitely independent, he doesn’t count on anyone for his financial and welfare, and he does his work professionally.

 

Having said that, I do agree that Mycroft seems more like mature one, at least on the surface. But at that moment, him insisting that he did the right thing by lying to the family and wanting to put his sister in isolation again, nope.

[Van Buren Supernova]

(not to the topic but feel free to blame Pseud, Camper and Arcadia for that XD . I'm merely innocent bycommentator. )
 
@Customer service/call center
May I interest you with unpleasant honesty from the other side? :P
 
I try to be polite as much as I could, and while I understand there are limit of authorities for those that prevent them from doing something more for the customers, it drives me crazy sometimes. What irks me the most is the robotic response of ‘this is company policy’, ‘this is how the system works’ or something along this line while what is needed for them is just to give solution for the inconvenience they cause on the first place (that is mostly my reason to call, that they screw up something). Customer is forced to surrender on their rigid idiotic terms and excuses after all those time and efforts wasted instead of really helped.

And any idea how hard is it sometimes to actually get a real person on the line? And why call center always choose crappy annoying music or song for the waiting tone?
 
And not to mention those who are really unqualified for the job, half-assing it or doing something wrong. One of the example that makes my blood boils everytime is when I did my credit card cancelation (I don’t have or need any) but I was given one when applying for mortgage that I had to cancel, and everything went well with the cancelation. It’s done and confirmed. … until I found out that ‘they cancel my cancellation’ without informing me, just because my mortgage representative from the bank told them not to cancel. Yah, everything is wrong in this story. The mortgage representative somewhat thought she was my friend and still had the audacity to try and persuade me after I confronted her. That ended well when I sent her a severed photo of credit card cut into small tiny pieces, details of phone conversations and screenshots that proved I canceled, numerous emails sent to whatever higher contacts I could find for the respective banks, national bank associations, customer protections and government authorities, saying I would continue to take more actions by every minute my credit card was alive. What she did was unlawful and worse, I found out only months after when they offered me secondary card to my first bloody one that I thought was already dead, cold and decomposing. And this was not a first time I had to take extreme measures to make them stop, although the other involved another bank for another idiotic matter and they even tried to put the blame on me. Managed to shut them up both times with tail tucked between legs but it was exhausting, time consuming and unpleasant, and all that to fix their mistakes  that purely caused by incompetence and ignorance. Gah.
 
So yah, anyway, I did give a piece of my mind when I had to, mostly not by yelling unreasonably, but being super sarcastic, threaten and really follow up with my threats, because nothing else is effective but sending you to spiral of more frustrating time wasting.

[Carol the Dabbler]

My, we *are* off-topic, aren't we?  (Restraining myself from adding my own "incompetent customer service" story.)

 

 

 

As for whether or not Sherlock and/or Mycroft would actually know who Mr. Spock is:

 

A.  Sherlock, at least, seems to know, since John calls him "Spock" in "Hounds" and Sherlock doesn't ask "Who the hell is Spock?"  (Then again, he was considerably distracted at the time, so who knows.)

 

B.  It's irrelevant anyhow, since that was merely an example (the first one I thought of that would be familiar to most of the people on this forum) of the sort of answer set that Sherlock might take exception to.

 

You guys were just being difficult, right?  :P

[T.o.b.y]

Wow, you guys got a really interesting discussion going here and I have so many thoughts on this with so little time and opportunity right now to put them into writing! :-(

 

About Sherlock's level of intelligence: I think he is probably way above average and has every claim to be called a genius, but compared to his own family, more specifically his own siblings, he is "just an idiot". The same is true in reverse for the Holmes' children's social and emotional needs and skills. This makes him an in-between sort of being who doesn't really fit in anywhere and highlights his loneliness. Comparing him to Mr Spock, the half-Vulcan, is actually quite appropriate.

[bedelia1984]

I find it really hard to believe that Mycroft is more intelligent than Sherlock following the events to TFP- especially his over-estimation of his ability to deal with the 'incandescent' Eurus.

 

I suppose it depends how limited our view of what constitutes intelligence is, should it not include the emotional at all? How was it that Sherlock figured out in a short time of knowing her how to reach Eurus when Mycroft had failed for over a decade to do so?

[T.o.b.y]

Because Mycroft has very high IQ but low emotional intelligence. Sherlock is more balanced that way.

[Pseudonym]

Everyone has bad customer service stories, and I think everyone hates call centres. You can understand why people are angry half the time and do your best to fix it, but then you get the real nutters who just call up to give you abuse. 

 

I get the feeling Sherlock ignores a lot of John's pop culture references that he doesn't get. I don't think he knows who Spock is and doesn't care enough to ask. But yes, I get the point you were making and was just being awkward.

[gerry]

I find it really hard to believe that Mycroft is more intelligent than Sherlock following the events to TFP- especially his over-estimation of his ability to deal with the 'incandescent' Eurus.

 

I suppose it depends how limited our view of what constitutes intelligence is, should it not include the emotional at all? How was it that Sherlock figured out in a short time of knowing her how to reach Eurus when Mycroft had failed for over a decade to do so?

Because Mycroft has very high IQ but low emotional intelligence. Sherlock is more balanced that way.

Mycroft was definitely overconfident in that Sherrinford was secure but I don't think how he dealt with Eurus was indicative of someone with low emotional intelligence. He was guilty of using her intelligence for his professional gain despite the risks he knew he was taking (i.e. the treats he gave her) but he could tell that the games were all about Sherlock because he understands her. He also talked to Eurus about Sherlock but was trying to protect Sherlock from her given she had already traumatized Sherlock in childhood.

 

Frankly, Sherlock was able to "save" Eurus because it was him that Eurus wanted to save her. THeir parents and Mycroft never would have been able to do what Sherlock did because Sherlock was the object of whatever it is she wanted.

[Arcadia]

I find it really hard to believe that Mycroft is more intelligent than Sherlock following the events to TFP- especially his over-estimation of his ability to deal with the 'incandescent' Eurus.

 

I suppose it depends how limited our view of what constitutes intelligence is, should it not include the emotional at all? How was it that Sherlock figured out in a short time of knowing her how to reach Eurus when Mycroft had failed for over a decade to do so?

 

Because Mycroft has very high IQ but low emotional intelligence. Sherlock is more balanced that way.

 

Maybe Carol can help me out here ... I'm fairly certain there's a point in the Star Trek canon ... in one of the movies, I think ... where Spock says that he thinks the Vulcans got it wrong, that eliminating emotions is not the path to creating a perfect being after all.

 

Which I think is the point Moftiss is making as well ... superior intelligence, superior logic, is not the way to be "good". Eurus and Mycroft may be smarter, but so what? Sherlock's the one who loves, and by so doing, saves people.

 

Maybe Mummy meant something like that ... Sherlock's got his priorities straight, it's better to help people and save lives, whereas Mycroft uses people and spends lives if his logic deems it necessary. After all, he not only hid Eurus away, he used her as a resource. I don't think the line between  Mycroft and Sherlock is as sharp as Mummy's remark would imply, but maybe something like that is the intent behind it.

 

And also I think they just wanted to have her say something hurtful to Mycroft, to strike him where he would feel it the most, to demonstrate the depth of her anger with him. And maybe to make the audience have a little sympathy for him -- assuming we're not cheering her for saying it. :p I for one have always wanted to see Mycroft put in his place ... but dang it, I wanted Sherlock to do it, not Mummy!

[Pseudonym]

I don't know about that Vulcan quote, but I know there was one in the JJ universe where Spock's father says to him that Vulcan's actually feel more deeply. 

 

I agree with all the points about Sherlock being more emotionally intelligent, even though he hides it well. 

 

Here's a question - if Mycroft were the one on the rooftop in TRF, who do you think he would jump for (assuming there was some risk, and whilst Sherlock hoped he'd survive, he also accepted something could go wrong and he could die for real)? Do you think he would jump for Sherlock? Their parents? 

 

[gerry]

I don't agree that mycroft is as cold and heartless as that would imply nor that Sherlocks intentions to solve his cases is to save people.

 

I feel like here there's an idea here that Sherlock is emotionally intellligent but yet ignorant to how he hurts people. How can both be true?

[Arcadia]

I don't know about that Vulcan quote, but I know there was one in the JJ universe where Spock's father says to him that Vulcan's actually feel more deeply. 

 

I agree with all the points about Sherlock being more emotionally intelligent, even though he hides it well. 

 

Here's a question - if Mycroft were the one on the rooftop in TRF, who do you think he would jump for (assuming there was some risk, and whilst Sherlock hoped he'd survive, he also accepted something could go wrong and he could die for real)? Do you think he would jump for Sherlock? Their parents?

Yes, and yes. And for queen and country. As long as it was a rational decision.

 

I don't agree that mycroft is as cold and heartless as that would imply nor that Sherlocks intentions to solve his cases is to save people.

Not at the beginning, no, but again, I think that's the point ... that's the evolution Moftiss talks about. Sherlock has it in him from the beginning to be Lestrade's "good man", but he has to journey to that point. I would say he started to turn the corner when he jumped off Bart's roof for the sake of his friends, and he's much further along by the end of S4, if not all the way there; we have two episodes where his case solving is driven by the need to save John, not to show how clever he is. We'll never know unless there's an S5, I guess, how much he's really changed.

 

I feel like here there's an idea here that Sherlock is emotionally intellligent but yet ignorant to how he hurts people. How can both be true?

Oh gosh, because that's such a human thing to do? Hurt those we're closest to, often without realizing it? Emotional intelligence doesn't mean he's perfect, it just means he recognizes emotions in himself and others, and recognizes their value. The opposite of Eurus, basically. But it doesn't mean he gets it right every time.

 

I agree Mycroft's not heartless, but I also agree he's done a better job of becoming emotionally distant than Sherlock ... and that the point of TFP is, Sherlock's the better man of the two for that reason. Whether we agree with that philosophy or not is another matter; personally, I think it's all a little more complicated than that, but I like the direction it points to ... logic and reason alone are not enough to make us "the most human human beings," as Captain Kirk would say. (Why am I making all these Star Trek references all of a sudden? )

[Pseudonym]

It's the Spocklock pic, it's infected your brain.

[gerry]

Not at the beginning, no, but again, I think that's the point ... that's the evolution Moftiss talks about. ...We'll never know unless there's an S5, I guess, how much he's really changed.

I don't go by what Moftiss talk about it, instead I go by what I see onscreen. Moffat also tried to claim killing CAM was noble but that's not what I saw onscreen. The evolution to "good man" Sherlock was supposedly on didn't look concluded to me by the end of TFP so I agree that season 5 would be the only way to know for sure.

 

Oh gosh, because that's such a human thing to do? Hurt those we're closest to, often without realizing it? Emotional intelligence doesn't mean he's perfect, it just means he recognizes emotions in himself and others, and recognizes their value.

Where did I say Sherlock is perfect. He's been shown as lacking emotional intelligence throughout the seasons. In season 1, he couldn't figure why the victim in TSIP would be thinking about her dead daughter in her final moments or why it wasn't kind to tell Molly that her boyfriend was gay in the way in which he did it. In season 2, he couldn't read Irene Adler or see that she was playing him to get information about Mycroft's plot or that Moriarty was wiling to kill himself or why or that Molly didn't have a boyfriend she was trying to impress and that he was who she cares about. In season 3, he couldn't tell that Mary was a liar assassin or why John was as angry as he was about him faking his death. In season 4, he couldn't tell how Norbury would react with his egging her on. There are others I'm sure.

 

There's more evidence in the show of Sherlock not understanding people's emotions/reactions than there are of Mycroft yet there's several people here saying Sherlock has more emotional intelligence.

 

I agree Mycroft's not heartless, but I also agree he's done a better job of becoming emotionally distant than Sherlock ...

I'd categorize Mycroft as more reserved and snobby than distant. I think he understands emotions fine, he just doesn't react emotionally. He's just more cerebral and logical but that doesn't mean he's lacking emotional intelligence.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Maybe Carol can help me out here ... I'm fairly certain there's a point in the Star Trek canon ... in one of the movies, I think ... where Spock says that he thinks the Vulcans got it wrong, that eliminating emotions is not the path to creating a perfect being after all.

 

That was the first movie, Star Trek: The Motion Picture, at the end.  Spock tells Kirk that V'ger was an intellectual marvel, but a simple feeling like affection was completely beyond its ability to comprehend.  At the beginning of the movie, Spock was about to complete his Kolinahr training to rid himself of all emotion, but has apparently decided that's not actually a wise course for him.

 

... if Mycroft were the one on the rooftop in TRF, who do you think he would jump for (assuming there was some risk, and whilst Sherlock hoped he'd survive, he also accepted something could go wrong and he could die for real)? Do you think he would jump for Sherlock? Their parents?

 

Not sure he'd be able to bring himself to step off that roof.  He'd presumably be willing-in-theory to risk death for certain people under certain conditions, but falling off a four-story building would be even worse than *shudder* legwork.

[Van Buren Supernova]

You guys were just being difficult, right?  :P

Honestly I wasn't. Or, maybe a little. XD

But I really didn't know the answer. He looks human, but he has elf ears. But then again this is set in future (right?:o), so there could be mutation or evolution, same with that one with wrinkled forehead, I don't know what he is as well. Only remember seeing him in TV donkey years ago and he sticks because I was wondering how he cleans that everyday. If that question was not a multiple choices, I probably write in Klingon. I'm quite sure it's a language (is it?) but the race/breed/species could be called the same, as I don't have any other guesses. I remember the word Vulcan only because you mentioned it. So yah, I won't be able to save my own life with Star Trek knowledge.

 

 

I don't agree that mycroft is as cold and heartless as that would imply nor that Sherlocks intentions to solve his cases is to save people.

I feel like here there's an idea here that Sherlock is emotionally intellligent but yet ignorant to how he hurts people. How can both be true?

I think it's a valid question and I don't have good response as I don't have chance to ponder about it now.

 

Not sure if it's related, I remember reading something awhile ago that empathy is not really an empathy unless you act on it. Two people witness a mishap of someone falling on the street. Both understand that it hurts and the person could use some help, but it's not life threatening situation and given little time the person would manage. One walks away. One decides to help.

By definition, I suppose (I could be very wrong!) both have empathy capacity but only the one who acts on that has the true empathy?

[Pseudonym]

 

 

Gerry: There's more evidence in the show of Sherlock not understanding people's emotions/reactions than there are of Mycroft yet there's several people here saying Sherlock has more emotional intelligence.

 

You have a point, I think perhaps it's that Sherlock is more emotional than Mycroft full stop rather than has more emotional intelligence. I think he works hard to hide his emotions, to be as coolly detached as Mycroft, but he actually feels things keenly. Mycroft is more even, he has emotions of course but they don't rule him. Lots of younger siblings, especially when there is such an age gap, idolise their older brothers and sisters when they are young, so I can see Sherlock trying to push down everything and emulate Mycroft. However, when it comes to recognising emotions in other people, Sherlock does seem a bit blind.