Episode 4.0: The Abominable Bride (alias The Special)

[sfmpco]

I mentioned before that I detect a sense of loss in some of the scenes with Mycroft, but I didn't think it meant he (or anyone else, for that matter) was doomed to die. It felt more like ... well, what I thought was, is that Mycroft knows (or thinks) something is coming that he fears will turn Sherlock against him completely.

 

I have nothing whatsoever to go on except the expression on Mycroft's face, though. Well, no ... there's also his repeated attempts (real or imagined) to get Sherlock to turn to him should he ever need anything.

 

Well, I hope it's not a foreshadow of Mycroft dying.  At any rate, it may be that Sherlock is a bit out of control with the drugs and that John's help in that regards is required, that perhaps Mycroft feels Sherlock slipping away from him.  He was recalcitrant about giving up the list on the plane.  That might be a symptom of something else.  Or not.  But there is nothing in these episodes that is accidental.

[Arcadia]

Yeah, that's something else I wondered about ... why did Mycroft pick up the torn pieces of the list and save them? Maybe he doesn't believe Moriarty will be enough to keep Sherlock off the drugs? Once again, that would imply Mycroft knows something about what's coming........well, since he wrote at least one of the upcoming episodes, I guess he does! XD

[T.o.b.y]

Why on earth should they kill of Mycroft (except to please me and even I would probably miss him)? I don't see the point. There wouldn't be enough emotional impact and it wouldn't serve any purpose for the story. The actor isn't likely to leave the show, because he's one of the main writers, and if they would want to push Mycroft more into the background, that could easily be done without doing him any bodily harm. No, no, he's safe, I'd say.

[sfmpco]

Interesting thought occurred to me to night.  Sherlock says the line..."Needs must when the Devil drives." and later in his flat he is waiting for "the Devil" to arrive, which is, of course, Moriarty.  But he's also saying up front in an off-handed way that Moriarty is driving this whole case.  Well, we know that later, but that's just an early reference to it.

[Amber§]

I think that Mycroft won't die also because in Conan Doyle's books he's alive until the end (if I remember well). Making him die in the series, in my opinion, would put too much distance between the show and the book and many people wouldn't appreciate it (like me, for example)

[Van Buren Supernova]

We've debated the moral issue a lot, regarding HLV, so I won't go on about it except to say that I think it is Dr Watson's reason for existing.  He is isn't just the narrator in ACD's stories, he is the yardstick against which the behaviour of the other characters - including Holmes - is measured.  Watson isn't a genius like Holmes but he is intelligent, humane, courageous and fair.  In short, a decent man.   Holmes does not expect him to be able to solve a mystery but he does trust him to be able to judge right from wrong (as in "The Adventure of the Abbey Grange, for instance.)  I feel that John should fulfil the same role for Sherlock.

Hmmm.. something clicked in my head.

If Sherlock trusts John as judge of right and wrong like what you said (he did say he outsources his conscience to John), then it's even more justifiable to Sherlock that shooting Magnussen is right (John shot Jeff Hope because he is not good. I always thought that he came to that decision by himself but maybe part of him remembers that John did the 'same' thing and John is a good person.

Well, it's arguable that John did that to save his life, but it's also arguable that Sherlock thinks he did the same. Anyway, in SIP, Sherlock showed quite a concern,"You just shot a man."

 

I still believe he made the decision based on what he thinks is right without being influenced though, although I think it's interesting theory that has some ground.

 

 

You think he gets more for playing alive Mycroft?

:lol: :lol: good point!

[Van Buren Supernova]

Yeah, that's something else I wondered about ... why did Mycroft pick up the torn pieces of the list and save them? Maybe he doesn't believe Moriarty will be enough to keep Sherlock off the drugs? Once again, that would imply Mycroft knows something about what's coming........well, since he wrote at least one of the upcoming episodes, I guess he does! XD

For once, I believe he did that for sentimental reason.

Someone who wants to but keep failing and don't know how to be a proper big brother.

[Boton]

One thing I was thinking about last night is that we have reason to suspect that Sherlock knows that Mycroft doesn't understand exactly how his (Sherlock's) mind palace really works.

 

In TAB, Mycroft says something to the effect of a mind palace being a memory technique and "I know what it will do and what it certainly will not."  That happened during one of the reality (on the plane) scenes while John was enthusing about Sherlock's ability to go into his own mind to solve cases.

 

Look back to HLV, and in the mind palace scene, Sherlock has Mycroft referring to his "ridiculous memory palace," indicating that he knows that Mycroft thinks this is a mnemonic technique, not one for making connections.  But watch HoB (which I did last night, just to check  :P ), and it is clear that Sherlock uses his mind palace to make connections between disparate facts.  That's how he got to the realization of "Liberty, IN" and the HOUNDs project.  

 

So my take away is that, among other things we've had confirmed about Sherlock's mind, is that he's bothered by the fact that Mycroft really doesn't understand how his mind works.  It kind of fits with my own head canon from reading the ACD stories that Mycroft is simply a different kind of intelligence than Sherlock; perhaps Mycroft is just better at taking in and organizing facts, but Sherlock is better at making unexpected connections, and that lets his work be more practical in nature.

 

 

[Arcadia]

 

Yeah, that's something else I wondered about ... why did Mycroft pick up the torn pieces of the list and save them? Maybe he doesn't believe Moriarty will be enough to keep Sherlock off the drugs? Once again, that would imply Mycroft knows something about what's coming........well, since he wrote at least one of the upcoming episodes, I guess he does! XD

For once, I believe he did that for sentimental reason.

Someone who wants to but keep failing and don't know how to be a proper big brother.

 

Awww, that really does make me feel for Mycroft. Not sure I agree, but it's ... sweet. :P

 

 

One thing I was thinking about last night is that we have reason to suspect that Sherlock knows that Mycroft doesn't understand exactly how his (Sherlock's) mind palace really works.

 

In TAB, Mycroft says something to the effect of a mind palace being a memory technique and "I know what it will do and what it certainly will not."  That happened during one of the reality (on the plane) scenes while John was enthusing about Sherlock's ability to go into his own mind to solve cases.

 

Look back to HLV, and in the mind palace scene, Sherlock has Mycroft referring to his "ridiculous memory palace," indicating that he knows that Mycroft thinks this is a mnemonic technique, not one for making connections.  But watch HoB (which I did last night, just to check  :P ), and it is clear that Sherlock uses his mind palace to make connections between disparate facts.  That's how he got to the realization of "Liberty, IN" and the HOUNDs project.  

 

So my take away is that, among other things we've had confirmed about Sherlock's mind, is that he's bothered by the fact that Mycroft really doesn't understand how his mind works.  It kind of fits with my own head canon from reading the ACD stories that Mycroft is simply a different kind of intelligence than Sherlock; perhaps Mycroft is just better at taking in and organizing facts, but Sherlock is better at making unexpected connections, and that lets his work be more practical in nature.

I like this. My brother and I are kind of like that; I'm better at communication and logical connections, he is better at creative leaps and emotional connections. We didn't get along well as kids, but do very well as adults. Well, I hope so. I admire him tremendously, I have no idea how he feels about me other than I'm still fun to tease. Although he has to watch out now because I finally learned how to tease him right back.

 

Oh, and he's 7 years older than me. Coincidence? Of course not, the universe is rarely so lazy... :d

[Van Buren Supernova]

Ask him about his weight.

[Arcadia]

Alas, my brother is a stick. I'm the one with the weight problem. It's all his fault, though. :P He gave me a cookie when I was three and I haven't been able to stop eating them since.

[Slithytove]

One thing I was thinking about last night is that we have reason to suspect that Sherlock knows that Mycroft doesn't understand exactly how his (Sherlock's) mind palace really works.

 

In TAB, Mycroft says something to the effect of a mind palace being a memory technique and "I know what it will do and what it certainly will not."  That happened during one of the reality (on the plane) scenes while John was enthusing about Sherlock's ability to go into his own mind to solve cases.

 

Look back to HLV, and in the mind palace scene, Sherlock has Mycroft referring to his "ridiculous memory palace," indicating that he knows that Mycroft thinks this is a mnemonic technique, not one for making connections.  But watch HoB (which I did last night, just to check  :P ), and it is clear that Sherlock uses his mind palace to make connections between disparate facts.  That's how he got to the realization of "Liberty, IN" and the HOUNDs project.  

 

So my take away is that, among other things we've had confirmed about Sherlock's mind, is that he's bothered by the fact that Mycroft really doesn't understand how his mind works.  It kind of fits with my own head canon from reading the ACD stories that Mycroft is simply a different kind of intelligence than Sherlock; perhaps Mycroft is just better at taking in and organizing facts, but Sherlock is better at making unexpected connections, and that lets his work be more practical in nature.

This makes sense - Mycroft clearly believes that his brother's Mind Palace is a mnemonic device, a system for storing information, but Sherlock uses it for this purpose and much more.  As you say, he uses it to make connections between apparently unrelated facts, and it may puzzle (and perhaps trouble) him that Mycroft fails to grasp this.  Also, in HLV, he goes into his Mind Palace not only to retrieve factual information which can save his life, but to make the emotional connections which enable him to withstand shock and to motive himself to survive (i.e. Redbeard, and the threat to John.) 

 

Superficially, the brothers share a very similar intelligence, as shown by their games of deduction, but it is possible that their minds work in very different ways.  That might go some way towards explaining why their relationship is so tense and difficult.

[T.o.b.y]

I don't know about Mycroft, but Sherlock definitely has an imagination. His brain is so much more than a "reasoning machine". He's clever, yes, but there's so much more going on in there. All that humor, drama, adventure - that wasn't strictly necessary to solve the case of Emilia Ricoletti. Not at all. (Sure, I know it was for our benefit, because 90 min of dry analytic reasoning probably wouldn't draw much of an audience, but I like to look at things from an in-universe perspective).

 

I admire Sherlock because he's brilliant, and I enjoy the deductions. But Mycroft is even more intelligent and could probably solve most of Sherlock's cases in half the time. I wouldn't want a series called "Mycroft" though. What I love Sherlock for, and have always loved Holmes for as well, is the "great heart behind the great brain." Sherlock Holmes has a soul. And what I love about the Mind Palace scenes in both His Last Vow and The Abominable Bride is that they actually provide windows to that. It's about a lot more than just his thought process.

 

And Mycroft hasn't got a clue.

[sfmpco]

A clue!  A clue!  Maybe.  In the credits of TAB, Janine's last name is Donlevy.  I am currently reading THE BEEKEEPER'S APPRENTICE, and Moriarty's daughter's last name is Donleavy... coincidence?    There has long been speculation that Janine and Moriarty are connected, but it has only been by the virtue that both are Irish.

 

Is it a clue for S4?  I don't know.  Just interesting.

[J.P.]

What about another clue: you remember Moriarty talking about 221B and Sherlock's comfy bed?

Who was in this bed in Sherlock's RL?

Irene and Janine.

(it was another detail that shot through my mind at the first viewing)

[Boton]

A clue!  A clue!  Maybe.  In the credits of TAB, Janine's last name is Donlevy.  I am currently reading THE BEEKEEPER'S APPRENTICE, and Moriarty's daughter's last name is Donleavy... coincidence?    There has long been speculation that Janine and Moriarty are connected, but it has only been by the virtue that both are Irish.

 

Is it a clue for S4?  I don't know.  Just interesting.

 

 

Ooooh, interesting!  Now, if we can track down who originated this idea of the Donleavy name, because I don't think it was ever mentioned in ACD canon.  (Someone correct me if I'm wrong.)  But if it is something that someone else generated as part of the Moriarty family tree, then I'm sure Moftiss consider it fair game to reference.

 

It would be interesting if the way Sherlock is able to work through the fact that his mirror image or dark side is represented by Moriarty is by falling for a relative of Moriarty's, Janine.  Like. the final step in his personal growth is that he confronts his "inner Moriarty" and deals with it and now is comfortable enough with himself to go raise bees with Moriarty's sister in Sussex Downs.   :D  [Ducks to avoid tomatoes thrown by those who don't like Sherlock/Janine.]

[Arcadia]

Ssssh!! That's just loopy enough to appeal to Moftiss!

[Slithytove]

Well, I'm a diehard Johnlock supporter, but I do like the idea of Sherlock living happily ever after with Miss Moriarty...

[Boton]

Ssssh!! That's just loopy enough to appeal to Moftiss!

 

You've got to admit, it's plausible.  I've always thought that Janine was behind the "Miss Me" message and that she used the various passwords and contacts she had amassed as Magnussen's PA to blanket all the media channels in the UK.  

[bedelia1984]

Ssssh!! That's just loopy enough to appeal to Moftiss!

 

I have to agree. Because they left the story as if Sherlock had pulled a fast one on Janine, they'd love to have a twist where she was the one who had been using him all along. And judging by SiB, that is also their idea of what flirting is in the Sherlockverse.

 

Was just watching The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes, and saw a good many references that were used in TAB- a veiled woman looking for help (who is not whom she seems), Sherlock's distrust of women in general... It was interesting to compare the two. The tone is closer to our Sherlock than other adaptations that I've seen.

[Boton]

 

 

Was just watching The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes, and saw a good many references that were used in TAB- a veiled woman looking for help (who is not whom she seems), Sherlock's distrust of women in general... It was interesting to compare the two. The tone is closer to our Sherlock than other adaptations that I've seen.

 

 

Great recommendation!  I've been watching historic Sherlock Holmes portrayals, but I haven't seen that one yet.  I'll get it and watch it!

[Slithytove]

The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes is a very enjoyable film, made by the late, great Billy Wilder.  I've seen it several times and it always makes me smile.  You have to remember, though, that it was butchered by the studio, which deleted several chunks of the story, so the beginning and the main story are a bit disjointed.

 

I watched it once with one of my daughters when she was quite small, and she found it genuinely creepy.

[bedelia1984]

The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes is a very enjoyable film, made by the late, great Billy Wilder.  I've seen it several times and it always makes me smile.  You have to remember, though, that it was butchered by the studio, which deleted several chunks of the story, so the beginning and the main story are a bit disjointed.

 

 

That's a shame, I would have liked to see the original cut (though I still found it very good).

[T.o.b.y]

It would be interesting if the way Sherlock is able to work through the fact that his mirror image or dark side is represented by Moriarty is by falling for a relative of Moriarty's, Janine.

 

I don't think Sherlock actually fell for Janine... He liked her well enough, but he didn't seem the least bit sentimental about her. Unlike Irene. The only person I would describe Sherlock as having fallen for is Irene.

 

 I've always thought that Janine was behind the "Miss Me" message and that she used the various passwords and contacts she had amassed as Magnussen's PA to blanket all the media channels in the UK.  

 

Is she smart enough for that? No offense, but Janine never struck me as overly intelligent. Appearances deceive, of course.

 

I have to agree. Because they left the story as if Sherlock had pulled a fast one on Janine, they'd love to have a twist where she was the one who had been using him all along. And judging by SiB, that is also their idea of what flirting is in the Sherlockverse.

 

Well, she had, in a way. I am pretty darn sure she was originally flirting with him on Magnussen's orders.

 

 

Sherlock does seem to feel pretty guilty about Janine. I think it's a bit harsh to compare his behavior towards her to the kind of "brute" Sir Eustace was, but Sherlock seems to be giving himself a hard time in general lately. Maybe his conscience has been out of order so long that it's overreacting now that he revived it.

[Arcadia]

What kind of brute was Sir Eustace, though? His crime was similar to Sherlock's ... using a woman, then throwing her away when she was no longer convenient. Whether Janine was using Sherlock too, or whether she forgave him at the end, doesn't excuse his behavior. I like that he seems to have realized that.

 

What I don't agree with is that Eustace "deserved" to die for his actions, any more than Sherlock does for his. That's a troubling overtone developing in this series; that murder is an acceptable remedy for injustice. I'm sure there are many terrorist organizations that would agree, but not I. I doubt Moftiss means it as literally as I've stated it, but even so it still troubles me.