Episode 4.2 "The Lying Detective"

[Pseudonym]

Well, rewatched, still find the beating disturbing - not as much but that's likely because I wasn't as shocked. It's definitely the kicking I find most problematic. This is a man who is clearly not well, he's thin, is beginning to have organ failure, is shaking, and kicking someone like that repeatedly in the stomach/chest... John's a doctor, he knows what kind of damage that can do. Yea, he's not rational but I think they took the scene a bit too far. 

 

Still not that bothered by Culverton Smith. By the way, when I said about him not living up to the hype I meant the hype from the actors, writers etc leading up to the show, not within the show itself. Yea, he's creepy, but no more so than characters I've seen elsewhere. I think I'll always find Magnussen the creepiest just for that sexual element - the hand thing still makes me cringe, even though it was cut it still shows how repulsive Magnussen is. And the face licking of course. 

 

Oh, and the hug - I've always wanted to see the two of them hug (when Sherlock came back in TEH and on the tarmac in HLV) so I'm glad they had that in there, though I wish John had kins of curled into him a bit more, they're still very apart. Still, fairly minor gripe. As for TJLC still reading too much into everything, I'm not surprised, and I'm avoiding Tumblr like the plague for that very reason. 

[Inge l-w]

Oh, absolutely agree on the blind anger kicking a man who is down, whatever the reason! He's a doctor and an officer (albeit ex), and this is not gentlemanly behaviour, it's thuggish and unprovoked after a point, especially since he knows that his late wife's shooting skills severely damaged Sherlock's liver. And tumblr has a lot to say on the specific injuries from HLV, including actual medical doctors analysing Mary's shot: join the Dark Side, it's fun, because ALL of it is not actually Sherlock Holmes, just the latest show about an iconic character.

And does Mr Moffat want Sherlock to become a good person, as well as a great one, as averred in SIP, because by now he has attained St George levels of dragon-slaying and fonts of forgiveness in himself?

[Fantasy Lover]

 

 

Oh, and the hug - I've always wanted to see the two of them hug (when Sherlock came back in TEH and on the tarmac in HLV) so I'm glad they had that in there, though I wish John had kins of curled into him a bit more, they're still very apart. Still, fairly minor gripe. As for TJLC still reading too much into everything, I'm not surprised, and I'm avoiding Tumblr like the plague for that very reason.

You can blacklist TJLC you know, just install new xkit go to blacklist and enter TJLC.

[Pseudonym]

Yup, but it's not so much the posts actually tagged TJLC, it's more how people who do believe it will be kicking off about how crap they think the show is (it's 'trash' if there's no JL apparently), and that's the stuff I'm avoiding for now. 

 

Thanks for posting the behind the scenes smfpco, enjoyed that immensely, especially the way they talk about the beating - pointing out that Sherlock is full of self-loathing and that they've both hit rock-bottom, good to see that acknowledged. Lots of fun bits in there too. It drove me nuts trying to figure out who was doing the voice over until the credits!

 

What do you guys think of the whole thing of Smith asking how long people have been working at the hospital? Just trying to belittle and unsettle them? Seems a weird way of doing it. 

 

I read a comment earlier about the possibility of Sherlock being suicidal - I think it's something he might wish was an option at least, that if things get too terrible and his guilt gets too much there is always that final way out. But now that Mary has died for him he can't do it because it would mean her death was in vain. I don't think he is suicidal, but I think, and this might seem a bit twisted, but there is something reassuring about knowing that if he ever gets to that point there is a way out. Or there was until Mary's sacrifice, which of course changes everything. I think he's probably thought about it, maybe when he was younger more than now, though not to the extent of actually doing anything more than his usual self-desructive behaviour. 

 

[Fantasy Lover]

Actually, it's more that narratively speaking it doesn't make any sense if canon Johnlock isn't endgame.

[J.P.]

VBS, thank you for being there. We can both fear Mycroft becoming human.

And if he does - we still have us. <-I better don't try to hug you :P

[Pseudonym]

Actually, it's more that narratively speaking it doesn't make any sense if canon Johnlock isn't endgame.

 

Out of genuine interest, how so? Or you mean the arguments you've seen for TJLC on Tumblr? The ones I'm referring to are full on ranting about trash unfortunately. 

[J.P.]

 

What do you guys think of the whole thing of Smith asking how long people have been working at the hospital? Just trying to belittle and unsettle them? Seems a weird way of doing it.

He owNs that hospital. He owns them. It was the way of reminding them of it. How long have you been here? Do you want to stay?

 

 

Actually, it's more that narratively speaking it doesn't make any sense if canon Johnlock isn't endgame.

Not if you are a believer. They have very elaborate explanations. Some of that stuff could be used for art studies. Seriously.

 

But maybe we should move the discussion to the TJLC thread?

[Fantasy Lover]

Out of genuine interest, how so? Or you mean the arguments you've seen for TJLC on Tumblr? The ones I'm referring to are full on ranting about trash unfortunately.

Then you're following the wrong people, the ones I follow can give you a thorough explanation besides 'no canon johnlock is trash'.

 

Have you ever seen Lost? Or HIMYM? They were both shows of which you were thinking 'this is how it ends' only to end differently. For TJLC, no canon johnlock is that.

[Pseudonym]

To be honest TJLC is just not really my thing, so I'm not all that interested in reading the arguments, that's why I'm avoiding it. People can happily speculate and argue all they want, and I'll just wait a while before going back. 

[Arcadia]

Leave it to Moffat to again shock the audience.  Wait until we see what he and Gatiss have written for us next Sunday:

 

http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2017-01-09/steven-moffat-and-mark-gatiss-tease-absolutely-crazy-sherlock-series-finale

 

Just getting around to reading this, and I have to admit, I have a great sense of dread that Ep. 3 will be more similar in tone to Ep. 1. God, I hope not.

 

My main reason for loving this episode is how it deals with the aftermath of Mary's death for John and Sherlock. It is profoundly moving.

 

Martin Freeman's thoughts on why John blames Sherlock fits really well with how I interpreted his actions. There is a lot of potent anger in John's feelings towards Sherlock. Sherlock has done some pretty bad stuff to John. At one point it comes out like this:

That was a nice one. And there's links there to a couple dozen other "official" Sherlock videos on that page. I think we've seen most of them but one or two were new to me. No spoilers, if you all want to check them out.

 

I wonder if Sherlock actually snapped in the mortuary when he realised that C. Smith had the upper hand. Was it part of the plan to get John to save him? Or was he just that upset and high on drugs?

I still haven't decided. I think I'm leaning towards he set the situation up to provoke John, but didn't exactly know how it was going to play out, so he was improvising, and it got a little out of hand. And I think Faith turning out to be a different woman genuinely threw him, for what that's worth.

 

What do you guys think of the whole thing of Smith asking how long people have been working at the hospital? Just trying to belittle and unsettle them? Seems a weird way of doing it.

I'm puzzled by that as well. And when he ordered everyone out of the morgue, what did "knock this time" imply? The doctor walked in on him once, playing around with the corpses? Ewwww.....

 

I read a comment earlier about the possibility of Sherlock being suicidal - I think it's something he might wish was an option at least, that if things get too terrible and his guilt gets too much there is always that final way out. But now that Mary has died for him he can't do it because it would mean her death was in vain.

I've never thought of him as suicidal, precisely, but awfully careless with his own life, as if it didn't matter. (I still feel bad for him every time he utters that "how do I have utility" line in HLV. Oh, Sherlock.)

[Redbeard]

After watching it again I am less annoyed with Ghost Mary than I was the first time.  Accepting she is John's subconscious projecting his own thoughts, then his (near constant) thoughts about Sherlock are actually really endearing.  John is actually a pretty emotionally cold kind of guy so it nice that deep down he has affection and care in there somewhere lol. 

 

I loved the whole part with Sherlock figuring out weeks in advance how things were going to play out.  Right down to planting a bug in John's cane because he already knew John would leave the cane behind.  Oh how I would have LOVED to hear that deduction playing out.  Priceless. 

 

I really hope Sherlock does not contact/start a relationship with Irene.  Even Janine or Molly would be better choices, though I'd prefer that be ambiguous at best.  I don't really want to see him in a romance. 

 

And Arcadia, I fully share your fears about Episode 3.  Could go either way!  Argh

 

[Arcadia]

 

What do you guys think of the whole thing of Smith asking how long people have been working at the hospital? Just trying to belittle and unsettle them? Seems a weird way of doing it.

He owNs that hospital. He owns them. It was the way of reminding them of it. How long have you been here? Do you want to stay?

 

 

He owns the hospital? I missed that. Then that makes sense, except I thought he said he didn't own it. Oh dear, must be time for another rewatch, what a shame .... :D

 

It's weird ... I really hated T6T, and I couldn't stop rewatching it. I love TLD, and I don't feel the need to see it again right away. I guess in the first case I was trying to make myself like it better through familiarity. But with TLD ... I guess I don't want to spoil it by developing too much familiarity?

 

My brain is weird.

[Pseudonym]

I didn't think he owned it either. I thought he'd just donated a lot (perhaps the building of a new wing, hence being able to put in the secret doors) and been given keys etc as a kind of goodwill gesture. 

 

The more you watch it the easier it is to get a bit numb and see flaws, maybe you're avoiding that? Honestly I'm still torn about this episode, I don't know what I would rate it as. Would you give it a full 10//10?

[Arcadia]

John is actually a pretty emotionally cold kind of guy so it nice that deep down he has affection and care in there somewhere lol.

Yes, this.

 

My favorite thing in the whole episode is this exchange: "I have this feeling we might be human." "Even you?" "No. Even you." Suddenly they've turned the whole relationship between these two on the head and pointed out how hard John has been on himself the whole time. I actually gasped a little the first time I heard that, it was just such a true statement.

[Arcadia]

I didn't think he owned it either. I thought he'd just donated a lot (perhaps the building of a new wing, hence being able to put in the secret doors) and been given keys etc as a kind of goodwill gesture.

Yeah that was my impression as well. Although I suppose a wealthy sponsor could wield influence over hiring decisions too? Maybe....

 

You know what kept running through my mind when I was watching this episode? "Jeezus, it's almost like they anticipated the election of Trump..."

 

The more you watch it the easier it is to get a bit numb and see flaws, maybe you're avoiding that? Honestly I'm still torn about this episode, I don't know what I would rate it as. Would you give it a full 10//10?

I did give it a 10, and I never do that, I always see a flaw. But I was just so happy at that moment, I went for it. But you make an excellent point, I suspect you're right. I think I'll go feed my weird brain with some chocolate, as a reward for looking out for me. :d

[hann156]

Phew, what an episode! So much discussion going on here and I don't actually have anything new to say. Just some of my thoughts:

 

- Culverton Smith Creepy as hell..don't really know anymore, which one is more intimidating, Magnussen or Smith. From the very beginning of the episode, I found him really disgusting. And he hugging and suffocating Sherlock..what on Earth was going on.

 

- Nurses giving that "medicine" to the participants of the meeting made me to shiver. I have a needle/medicine phobia, so that scene really made me to feel ill. Also the whole feeling of that scene and Culverton laughing...

 

- Ms. Hudson was brilliant. She had some balls in this episode!

 

- The humor was great. Without it the episode would have been too grim and horrifying.

 

- Eurus??? I was so confused. At some point of the episode, I stopped thinking about what is going to happen next. Just sat back on my sofa and enjoyed the flow. Also, I gave up trying to deduce the next episode. I think Moftiss will surprise me once again.

 

- John and Sherlock's hug!!! I have heard so many opinions about this, but for me it was absolutely sweet and sad at the same time. I really have enjoyed how Sherlock has been showing more and more emotions. He's not just a machine.

 

-Every main character has developed since the first episodes. Also the series has gone to a darker level and at some points I felt I was watching a horror show (the morgue scene still gives me goose bumps...)

 

Very great episode indeed. Not the best, but not far from that. Gave it 10/10. ;) After last week's ok, but not brilliant start, this episode felt so magnificent and had many layers on it.

 

[thewalkingdeb]

Thank you all - I felt the need to join a Forum after Ep 2 ended; Must admit was a little confused. The many comments in this thread have helped tremendously - Just a few questions 1) Was Euros/Sherrinford at the dinner when Smith confessed to killing someone? and 2) Was the "someone" intended to be Sherlock from the beginning; If so. was it a conspiracy between Euros and Smith? I'll look for the response to these inquiries and continue to follow you all in the future.

[T.o.b.y]

After watching it again I am less annoyed with Ghost Mary than I was the first time. 

 

I wish that would happen to me too. At the moment, Mary's ghost is a constant irritant for me. I don't feel like unleashing a wave of negativity at the moment so I'll just leave it at that. For now. :P

 

 

It's weird ... I really hated T6T, and I couldn't stop rewatching it. I love TLD, and I don't feel the need to see it again right away. I guess in the first case I was trying to make myself like it better through familiarity. But with TLD ... I guess I don't want to spoil it by developing too much familiarity?

 

I would love to watch The Lying Detective again before the last episode airs but by the time I can sit down to watch anything over 30 minutes long these says it is too late and I need to go to bed. Besides, I do really dread Euros and the ending. That woman is scary as hell. She reminds me of Moriarty minus the fun (in fact, I think it's uncanny how well she channeled Moriarty during the few seconds she got to actually play herself, or what one would assume right now is herself).

 

I think she's way scarier than Culverton Smith. He didn't impress me much. Too cartoonish for my taste. But very Doyle, of course.

 

 

The more you watch it the easier it is to get a bit numb and see flaws, maybe you're avoiding that? Honestly I'm still torn about this episode, I don't know what I would rate it as. Would you give it a full 10//10?

 

I wouldn't. Mary's ghost alone prevents that. My favorites are still the older episodes. I understand that they wanted to take the show places they hadn't been before and keep things fresh and exciting but I am generally one of those "the old ones were better" people no matter whether we're talking about Sherlock, Star Wars or any other franchise. :lol:

 

Was Euros/Sherrinford at the dinner when Smith confessed to killing someone?

 

No, I don't think so. I think that was his real daughter. The one who responded to the text message and came to the morgue. Welcome to the forum, btw!

[Pseudonym]

Thank you all - I felt the need to join a Forum after Ep 2 ended; Must admit was a little confused. The many comments in this thread have helped tremendously - Just a few questions 1) Was Euros/Sherrinford at the dinner when Smith confessed to killing someone? and 2) Was the "someone" intended to be Sherlock from the beginning; If so. was it a conspiracy between Euros and Smith? I'll look for the response to these inquiries and continue to follow you all in the future.

 

It'd definitely the real daughter, Euros only knows about it because Culverton told her and gave her the note. 

 

When he said he wants to kill anyone, I get the impression that was a while before the events with Sherlock and he literally meant anyone. When he lured Sherlock in though, via the note, I'm pretty sure he did want Sherlock as a victim.

[sherlockandjohn]

I loved the whole part with Sherlock figuring out weeks in advance how things were going to play out.  Right down to planting a bug in John's cane because he already knew John would leave the cane behind.  Oh how I would have LOVED to hear that deduction playing out.  Priceless.

 

That particular part I'm actually not too fond of, since we weren't told how he could make such a deduction, and it just seems way out of proportion - even for Sherlock. How could he possibly know that John would bring his cane and leave it with Sherlock - and at that specific time? Makes no sense. But I'm trying hard to overlook this fact, because I really, really love this episode, and I really want to keep on loving it!

[Arcadia]

I actually loved that bit too ... it was preposterous, but they knew that it was, and made a joke of it, so it worked for me. But in terms of an actual explanation ... I think it's just that Sherlock really is supposed to know John just that well. And John is rather predictable to begin with. And people really do things like that; give away or return a memento when they're parting ways with someone. But if it hadn't been the cane, it would have been something else, I figure. Sherlock was never as out of it as he was pretending to be, he knew what he was doing.

 

 

[sherlockandjohn]

Hm. Must just be me, then I do have a need to make sense of the things that have an emotional impact on me. Nobody knows anyone that well And what was the joke, I must have missed it?

[sherlockandjohn]

Basically, Sherlock was just able to predict everything in this episode. I guess his thoughts on "feasible variables" from TST wasn't just a joke, then.

 

It also bothered me that Sherlock took quite a chance, thinking that John would come to his rescue just when he did. But now I'm thinking that Sherlock called Mycroft and arranged the timing with him. Then Mycroft called John. If I remember correctly, someone called from the hospital to warn Mycroft that Sherlock was locked inside the hospital room. John heard that, and that would do the trick.

[sherlockandjohn]

I'm posting so much... someone should really stop me. (But it won't be me!)

 

 

I read a comment earlier about the possibility of Sherlock being suicidal - I think it's something he might wish was an option at least, that if things get too terrible and his guilt gets too much there is always that final way out. But now that Mary has died for him he can't do it because it would mean her death was in vain. I don't think he is suicidal, but I think, and this might seem a bit twisted, but there is something reassuring about knowing that if he ever gets to that point there is a way out. Or there was until Mary's sacrifice, which of course changes everything. I think he's probably thought about it, maybe when he was younger more than now, though not to the extent of actually doing anything more than his usual self-desructive behaviour. 

 

 

I wrote earlier about how Sherlock might have had thoughts of suicide, but I like your take on it, that he might wish it was an option. That makes sense. Sherlock is heartbroken after what happened to Mary, his part in it, and John’s reactions towards him. How he acts the night he spends with Faith shows a man who can sympathise with the suicidal woman – and I’m starting to think it’s because he has some of those thoughts himself. But he knows that his life isn’t his own. He keeps saying it, and at one point it doesn’t sound like he is saying it to Faith anymore, but to himself. As the behind-the-scenes video suggests, Sherlock is full of self-loathing at this point, and he has lost his two best friends.