Episode 4.3 "The Final Problem"

[sfmpco]

Well, I think the "he hurt and humiliated Molly" is not true.  He never humiliated her at all.  From her perspective, it's just a private conversation between her and Sherlock, and I think he did everything he could  to do it in a way that would not be hurtful. What would have been truly humiliating would have been for her to have been under direct Eurus' influence KNOWING that John and Mycroft were watching, but she didn't know.  As I said, as far as she is concerned, it's a private conversation that has become intimate.  

[gerry]

If the series ever does go forward, they have to deal with the consequences of the ILY and have Sherlock and Molly in a different place.

I don't think this is likely given Moffat's quotes in EW and Gatiss' on the DVD extras.

 

Honestly IF there is another episode it will probably be in several years which gives Moftiss the perfect opportunity to pretend it didn't happen and not have it be a continuation of season 4.

[sfmpco]

I seriously doubt they will just wash S1-4 under the bridge as if it never happened.  That would be a little too weird.

[Carol the Dabbler]

They may just have the characters get on with their lives, though -- like they said, Sherlock and John solving crimes.

[sfmpco]

Well they've already done all the big ones, so who knows... and they've always said, it's not a detective show.  It's a show about a detective.

 

[gerry]

Well, I think the "he hurt and humiliated Molly" is not true. He never humiliated her at all.

There's a reason she didn't want to say ILY. My intepretation was that it was because she believes it was true for her and not for him so being forced to say something personal like that when you don't want to is humiliating. Her not knowing she had an audience is irrelevant because humiliation doesn't only exist in front of multiple people.

[sfmpco]

If she truly felt she was being humiliated, she would not have done it.  She would have told him to bugger off and hung up on him.  If he also hadn't said ILY like he meant it, she would have just hung up on him, because she does see through his bullshit and always has, as is documented as far back as TBB in her blog.  I think the call was bad timing for whatever reason she was having a bad day, but I don't think humiliation was happening.

 

[Arcadia]

What do you think she was feeling, sfmpco?

[sfmpco]

What do you think she was feeling, sfmpco?

 

Well, lots of things.  First of all, I think she and Sherlock have a very deep friendship, and that no matter what, he can count on her and trust her, even if he's being an ass, even if he's drugged out--he knows she will be there for him and NOT because she's pining hopelessly for him but because he put his trust in her when his life was on the line.  That alone created an intimate bond between them that could never be broken.  She was there for him, believing in him in his darkest hour and he clung to that like a lifeline.  For two years she didn't spill the beans.  If he had died on his mission, she probably never would have said anything.  Why put John through Sherlock's death twice?

 

The point is that she and Sherlock have an unstated intimacy between them (not sexual but deep friendship).  He probably calls her often.  Sometimes for a favor, sometimes to gossip.  He expects her to pick up the phone when he calls, and I think it's a bit of a wake up call to him when she doesn't pick up every call.  He's in a bit of a panic about her not picking up, but she's not in a panic.  

 

He also knows flat out since ASIB that she loves him, that all the adornment she wore and the color of her lipstick and the color of the wrapping paper was all for him.  And having her work with him for a day in TEH was like a date - Sherlock version - that ended with him wishing her a happy life when he acknowledged her engagement.  Two ships passing on the night, but she declared out of his earshot that he was just her type.  Still she carried on with Tom for another 6 months but it was clear at John and Mary's wedding that she only had eyes for Sherlock and that Tom was doomed.  The writers could have had her go on with Tom and live happily ever after, but they didn't.  They freed her up.

 

In TAB, much nonsense was made of Sherlock not knowing Dr. Hooper was actually a woman, people forgetting that Sherlock assigned her that role in his mind palace, and just as she had kept his secrets after TRF, he keeps that secret for her.  He protects her.  That's how he feels - protective of her since TRF. And at the end when the ladies are revealed in that cavern, she steps forward into the warm light by him but Janine only stays in the background, and Irene is nothing more than a picture in a locket.  That warm light is very deliberate on the part of the filmmakers.  This is how he thinks of her - warmly.  This is his mind palace.

 

That's why he would never do anything to humiliate her in TFP, and Eurus' interpretation of it was from the POV of a psychopath.  Molly knows he knows how she feels.  Whatever happened that made her day bad was like her saying, "Really, you want to do this now? Why are you asking me?"  She had to believe, however, that there was something more to the question or he wouldn't be asking it at all.  Of course I'm not saying she thought that there was any kind of nefarious plot behind it, because she was oblivious, but for him to ask that out of the blue was something that likely triggered that ultimate deep friendship between them where he was saying yet again, "trust me."  She could tell he wasn't playing one of his "stupid games."  He was too serious for that, but she took control and made him say ILY first, and if he didn't say it like he meant it, she would not have said it back.  That he said it even the first time made her smile a bit, but it was only after the meaningful second time that she said it.  And that's not humiliation.  That's actually her level of trust with him.

[sfmpco]

I should also add that it's very hard to say ILY to someone for the first time because of the fear of rejection, another reason why I think she had him say it first.  She created her own soft landing by that.  She may have always felt it, and he may have known for a long time that she felt that way, but saying the actual words was something entirely different.    To him they were just words to be said... until he said them himself.  Then he had a little light bulb moment.  Those words were powerful.

[T.o.b.y]

Molly and Sherlock... It's funny, I really don't "ship" them myself but it's a pairing that I can totally understand people wishing for because the actors' chemistry is just so good and every scene between them is such a treat. Even something so totally forced and awkwardly written imho (never, ever thought I'd say that about anything Sherlock-related! :( ) as Eurus' human-lab-rats game couldn't spoil that.

 

Game... Is it really a game for Eurus? Does she even know how to play? We see her doing something seemingly childlike with a toy plane in the flashbacks but she doesn't sound like a playful child the way she is described. Maybe the boys didn't include her because she literally couldn't play, couldn't interact with them in any way that made sense to them as little pirates?

 

I think it's a game for Moriarty. For Eurus, it's an experiment. And I think her primary objective is actually not to be cruel (she doesn't strike me as predominantly sadistic, that's more Culverton Smith) but to figure something out, maybe why her intellectually inferior brothers have a life while she has to live locked away at Sherrinford for example.

[sfmpco]

But is it a matter of shipping?  I don't think so.  I think it is merely examining what is already there and saying that although they didn't come together as a couple on the screen, that clearly there is something very special but very much in the background between them, and it had been brewing and bubbling since ASIB and finally had some resolution in TFP.  As both John and Sherlock said, "It is what it is."  

 

 

[T.o.b.y]

But is it a matter of shipping?  I don't think so.  I think it is merely examining what is already there and saying that although they didn't come together as a couple on the screen, that clearly there is something very special but very much in the background between them, and it had been brewing and bubbling since ASIB and finally had some resolution in TFP.  As both John and Sherlock said, "It is what it is."  

 

Yup - I agree there's plenty there without shipping them (same with John and Sherlock). I was just saying I totally understand people who ship them (as with John and Sherlock too btw) even though I don't myself. Basically I tried to make two different statements at once and ended up being obtuse. Sorry. :lol:

 

[gerry]

If Molly and Sherlock were already deeply emotionally intimate and she knew how he feels about her why would she need a soft landing? Also, if they had already achieved intimacy and she wasn't being humiliated, why and how would the ILY call change their relationship going forward?

 

It's just amazing to me how much an audience can infer about that relationship with what little was actually onscreen because what little was onscreen definitely didn't support that interpretation for me.

[J.P.]

Well, this little we have seen on screen leaves us with no other option than trying to make sense out it by our own. :P

[gerry]

Very true JP! I guess this is why that level of ambiguity can be detrimental to characterization. I mean this is why you have extreme shippers like JohnLock getting so upset over not getting what they expected onscreen. They inferred what they wanted to see because you're expected to fill in the blanks and were then disappointed it didn't actually happen onscreen.

 

I mean Gatiss cheekily flat out said the audience may never know whether Sherlock meant the ILY or just said it to save her life. They clearly enjoy leaving everything ambiguous and then seem surprised by the negative reactions the audience can have to being jerked around. I'm not a shipper of anything on this show but if you were I'd imagine no one feeling like they got a good payoff by the end of TFP.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Game... Is it really a game for Eurus? Does she even know how to play? We see her doing something seemingly childlike with a toy plane in the flashbacks but she doesn't sound like a playful child the way she is described. Maybe the boys didn't include her because she literally couldn't play, couldn't interact with them in any way that made sense to them as little pirates?

 

I think it's a game for Moriarty. For Eurus, it's an experiment. And I think her primary objective is actually not to be cruel (she doesn't strike me as predominantly sadistic, that's more Culverton Smith) but to figure something out, maybe why her intellectually inferior brothers have a life while she has to live locked away at Sherrinford for example.

Totally agree. It's not a game for Eurus. Nor is it sadism (though I would imagine the other participants might disagree with me). It's simply cold, detached scientific curiosity.

 

I miss Moriarty!

[Arcadia]

Oh goody, we're discussing Eurus again! I still don't feel like I have a handle on her. Does she even know the difference between playing a game with someone and experimenting on them? Why was she so focused on playing with/studying/torturing Sherlock?

 

Her little snarled "I never had a friend" made me think she was jealous of Sherlock's friendship with Victor, but on the other hand it's implied she's not capable of emotion. But then it seems that she feels emotions but can't identify them for what they are. But if she's supposed to provide a contrast to Sherlock, then it seems it should be more than she's doesn't feel, not that she can't understand what she feels.

 

But either way, she felt compelled to put Victor in peril. But did she know he would die if Sherlock couldn't figure out her riddle? If so, that seems pretty malevolent. Which comes back to emotions. Urk.

 

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

Not necessarily. Are scientists being malevolent when they put their lab rats in mortal danger?

[Arcadia]

Not necessarily (unless you're with PETA or something.) But that's my point ... is she emotionless? Let's see ... one of the first things we learn about her from Mycroft is that she can't distinguish which feeling is pain when she cuts herself. That's not lack of feeling, is it? It's more like she has her wires crossed, she can't distinguish one feeling from the other. Add to that her high intelligence and (one presumes) curiosity, and I can see how it might lead to her trying experiments on people just to study their emotional reactions. At the same time, though, there seems to be a very personal element to it ... to me there's some sort of fondness/obsession/possessiveness driving her relationship to Sherlock. All the experiments at Sherrinford are aimed at him; but why? And like I said above, there's hints she was jealous of Victor.

 

And then there's the implication that she really did just want to play after all, because at the end, that's where they end up ... Sherlock is finally "playing" with her. So were her little trials at Sherrinford experiments ... or just her idea of a game? (And if they were "just" experiments, what the heck was she trying to learn from them? How her brother reacts to torture? Why would she care? I am still very puzzled.... )

[Carol the Dabbler]

Do you insist that everything make perfect sense? If so, I recommend that you avoid real life. ;) It tends to be a bit sloppy.

[Arcadia]

I thought that's what we were all doing here, avoiding real life ...

[catiem]

Molly and Sherlock... It's funny, I really don't "ship" them myself but it's a pairing that I can totally understand people wishing for because the actors' chemistry is just so good and every scene between them is such a treat. Even something so totally forced and awkwardly written imho (never, ever thought I'd say that about anything Sherlock-related! :( ) as Eurus' human-lab-rats game couldn't spoil that.

It has nothing to do with "shipping". That's a separate thing fans do. There are a few analyses written on Tumblr, one in particular, is a 2 part "meta" or analysis written by "Cassbel5" and there is also the interview Louise Brealey did with Masterpiece that basically point to things happening off screen. These things are only hinted at. We aren't shown them. And in many instances they are things that aren't witnessed by John or any of the characters that are part of Sherlock's inner circle. Every time these 2 characters appear together or are spoken about in the same breath, their relationship is somehow different, but we're not shown how. An example of this is Molly's flat, specifically her bedroom being used as a bolthole by Sherlock; there isn't much said about it, just that it is the case. But that is a red flag that should have gone up. You have to ask yourself, at what point is it reasonable to allow a man to take over your bedroom if you aren't in some kind of relationship that's more than a simple platonic friendship? This isn't a reasonable expectation that any man would ever have even by modern standards if he wasn't involved in significant way. Again, it's an "arrangement" arrived at without John's knowledge. This is important because John, as Sherlock's blogger/chronicler he doesn't know everything there is to know about his friend. And we're shown that. How is it that the only one who doesn't know Sherlock's birthday is John? Regarding the Canon, there has been some discussion about John as the "unreliable narrator". I think in some ways, this series took that idea and ran with it. How well does John really know his friend? For that matter how well do any of us know our friends, our significant others, our siblings or our parents? Go find that meta and read it. Its very interesting.

[bedelia1984]

Not necessarily (unless you're with PETA or something.) But that's my point ... is she emotionless? Let's see ... one of the first things we learn about her from Mycroft is that she can't distinguish which feeling is pain when she cuts herself. That's not lack of feeling, is it? It's more like she has her wires crossed, she can't distinguish one feeling from the other. Add to that her high intelligence and (one presumes) curiosity, and I can see how it might lead to her trying experiments on people just to study their emotional reactions. At the same time, though, there seems to be a very personal element to it ... to me there's some sort of fondness/obsession/possessiveness driving her relationship to Sherlock. All the experiments at Sherrinford are aimed at him; but why? And like I said above, there's hints she was jealous of Victor.

 

 

I suspect that part of the problem we all are having interpreting Eurus stems from the fact that the main logic governing her actions was that they served narratively to tie up any loose threads characterisation-wise between Sherlock and those closest to him.

 

The one thing I gleaned from Eurus was that she placed little value on human life but quite a high value on the idea of being loved. To me, this explains her fixation on Sherlock- most loved by his parents, the only Holmes child with a close friend from outside the family...

 

In ways what she did with Molly puzzled me- because why not kill Molly? But I think there, perhaps the question of reciprocation was driving her- she wanted to see how Sherlock would react in a pressurised situation there- and somehow it was different, in the eyes of Eurus, to Victor or John, because those relationships are more defined.

 

I still think Eurus was under-estimated by Sherlock by the end of TFP- the senseless violence she was capable of doesn't go away just because they are playing a few duets together. Apparently they played music together as children (which seems a retcon of sorts, but still), and it didn't change her for the better then.

[T.o.b.y]

 

 

Not necessarily (unless you're with PETA or something.) But that's my point ... is she emotionless? Let's see ... one of the first things we learn about her from Mycroft is that she can't distinguish which feeling is pain when she cuts herself. That's not lack of feeling, is it? It's more like she has her wires crossed, she can't distinguish one feeling from the other. Add to that her high intelligence and (one presumes) curiosity, and I can see how it might lead to her trying experiments on people just to study their emotional reactions. At the same time, though, there seems to be a very personal element to it ... to me there's some sort of fondness/obsession/possessiveness driving her relationship to Sherlock. All the experiments at Sherrinford are aimed at him; but why? And like I said above, there's hints she was jealous of Victor.

 

I suspect that part of the problem we all are having interpreting Eurus stems from the fact that the main logic governing her actions was that they served narratively to tie up any loose threads characterisation-wise between Sherlock and those closest to him.

 

The one thing I gleaned from Eurus was that she placed little value on human life but quite a high value on the idea of being loved. To me, this explains her fixation on Sherlock- most loved by his parents, the only Holmes child with a close friend from outside the family...

 

In ways what she did with Molly puzzled me- because why not kill Molly? But I think there, perhaps the question of reciprocation was driving her- she wanted to see how Sherlock would react in a pressurised situation there- and somehow it was different, in the eyes of Eurus, to Victor or John, because those relationships are more defined.

 

I still think Eurus was under-estimated by Sherlock by the end of TFP- the senseless violence she was capable of doesn't go away just because they are playing a few duets together. Apparently they played music together as children (which seems a retcon of sorts, but still), and it didn't change her for the better then.

I don't know if Eurus values love, but she sure seems fascinated by it, same as with ethics. My impression was that her "experiments" were designed to prove a theory of hers that no actual good comes from making ethically sound decisions and that love is a disadvantage - ideas that Sherlock himself bought into not very long ago, of course, so part of her function in the narrative is to show how Sherlock now questions his own formerly sacred principles.

 

At the same time, I have a feeling that she was kind of hoping / wishing to be proven wrong.

 

Why Sherlock? I guess, as far as she was able, she did like Sherlock a lot when they were growing up. She wasn't lying probably when she says he was her favorite. And I agree that she was probably (very) jealous of Victor.

 

If Sherlock really underestimated her, would he have let her be taken back to Sherrinford? He says he can't save her as she's being taken away by Lestrade, so I don't think the duets are an attempt at any kind of cure, just the one way he can have a connection to her at all. Why he'd want that connection is a whole other question, of course.