Episode 4.3 "The Final Problem"

[Arcadia]

This is important because John, as Sherlock's blogger/chronicler he doesn't know everything there is to know about his friend. And we're shown that. How is it that the only one who doesn't know Sherlock's birthday is John? Regarding the Canon, there has been some discussion about John as the "unreliable narrator". I think in some ways, this series took that idea and ran with it. How well does John really know his friend? For that matter how well do any of us know our friends, our significant others, our siblings or our parents? Go find that meta and read it. Its very interesting.

Welcome, Catiem!!! That's what we like to see, new members jumping right into the discussion! Hope you'll stick around and share more of your ideas.

 

I agree they've shown us that John doesn't always see very far past Sherlock's exterior. Sometimes he does, but all too often he's fooled. I get the impression it's because he really wants to believe Sherlock is superhuman; he finds that idea reassuring, somehow. Something to cling to in an otherwise unreliable world, perhaps? Maybe that's one reason he gets so irritable when he thinks Sherlock's not being his best self?

 

The one thing I gleaned from Eurus was that she placed little value on human life but quite a high value on the idea of being loved. To me, this explains her fixation on Sherlock- most loved by his parents, the only Holmes child with a close friend from outside the family...

 

In ways what she did with Molly puzzled me- because why not kill Molly? But I think there, perhaps the question of reciprocation was driving her- she wanted to see how Sherlock would react in a pressurised situation there- and somehow it was different, in the eyes of Eurus, to Victor or John, because those relationships are more defined.

To be honest, I thought they tried to establish that the reason she didn't kill Molly was because she didn't really have the means to put a bomb in her flat. It's one thing to install cameras, but quite another, I would imagine, to rig it with explosives. Although I guess if she'd really wanted to she would have found a way, I suppose. Hmm. Maybe she just wanted to show solidarity with her gender. :P

 

I still think Eurus was under-estimated by Sherlock by the end of TFP- the senseless violence she was capable of doesn't go away just because they are playing a few duets together. Apparently they played music together as children (which seems a retcon of sorts, but still), and it didn't change her for the better then.

I didn't think he thought was curing her ... just showing her she was still loved, in spite of everything. And in part, atonement for not being the brother she needed him to be, perhaps.

 

I don't know if Eurus' values love, but she sure seems fascinated by it, same as with ethics. My impression was that her "experiments" were designed to prove a theory of hers that no actual good comes from making ethically sound decisions and that love is a disadvantage - ideas that Sherlock himself bought into not very long ago, of course, so part of her function in the narrative is to show how Sherlock now questions his own formerly sacred principles.

This!

 

At the same time, I have a feeling that she was kind of hoping / wishing to be proven wrong.

 

Why Sherlock? I guess, as far as she was able, she did like Sherlock a lot when they were growing up. She wasn't lying probably when she says he was her favorite. And I agree that she was probably (very) jealous of Victor.

Yeah, okay, that makes sense to me. It's all there in the episode but I'm too much like Sherlock, I want it to be more clever. Or something. Suddenly I want to watch it again. Thanks!

 

If Sherlock really underestimated her, would he have let her be taken back to Sherrinford? He says he can't save her as she's being taken away by Lestrade, so I don't think the duets are an attempt at any kind of cure, just the one way he can have a connection to her at all. Why he'd want that connection is a whole other question, of course.

 

Because he's "the emotional one", with a big heart? In some sense, the whole show's been about him trying to make connections with people. I always wondered why he seemed so eager to convince John to be his flatmate, and speculated it was because, deep down, he really craves the human connection. He just had to push his intellect out of the way long enough to let himself see it. Personally, I think he would have got there without Eurus' intervention, but I guess it's more dramatic this way.

[Boton]

I agree with all that. But it still wouldn't surprise me if they never address the "I love you" scene, and leave them exactly where they've always been, just because it's Moftiss.

 

It's funny, I was just wondering this morning as I was driving to work what we were supposed to make of Sherlock smashing the coffin. I bet everyone has a different interpretation. For myself, I think maybe Sherlock was enraged because he wants so much to never hurt Molly again, and yet he ended up hurting her anyway. Sort of like that. There's something more to it, though, I haven't quite explained it to myself yet.

 

That's what I think - if the show comes back, there will be little perceptible change, if any, in the Sherlock-Molly relationship.  Maybe some increased kindness on Sherlock's part, which I expect to see across his relationships.

 

For me, I think Sherlock smashed the coffin because he had reached his limit on being manipulated.  It was one thing if he let Eurus manipulate him and maybe John and Mycroft (since they were committed to the situation anyway).  But once Eurus started messing with "civilians," particularly one like Molly that Sherlock actually cares for in some ill-defined way, it was enough.  However, I'm not particularly convinced that his anger is because Eurus involved Molly per se; I think he would have been equally angry had it been Lestrade or Mrs. Hudson. (Who am I kidding; he would have been murderous if it had been Mrs. Hudson.)

[Arcadia]

Oh god, now I'm imagining the fanfics if he had been forced to say "I love you" to Lestrade.

 

And now that I say that, I think it's significant that Molly is the "civilian" who was chosen to be put in peril. Although maybe they just couldn't think of another way to include Loo in the episode. But I'd rather think Molly was chosen because of her particular relationship to Sherlock ... whatever it is, it's different from all his other relationships. He appears to treat her like a friend, but even he knows what she feels for him is something rather different.

 

For some reason when we discuss this scene I keep thinking of the moment in Lord of the Rings when Aragorn talks about his rejection of Eowyn: "Few other griefs amid the ill chances of this world have more bitterness and shame for a man's heart than to behold the love of a lady so fair and brave that cannot be returned." Since LOTR is my bible, I guess I think that attitude must be true for any man of honor, even Sherlock. Anyway, that's what I'm inclined to see ... bitterness and shame that he can't return Molly's love the way she wants, and that once again her infatuation with him has led to her being hurt. And because he does, in some way, love her, he hates himself for not being able to protect her from her feelings for him.

 

That's why it's vivisection ... Eurus has brought out feelings of shame and failure, which are things that are painful for a person to accept about themselves. (Men, particularly, methinks.)

 

Or ... it could be something else entirely. Someone suggested he's just mad because Eurus tricked him, and that's a perfectly sound analysis. But I'm always hoping we'll go deeper. :d

[gerry]

That's what I think - if the show comes back, there will be little perceptible change, if any, in the Sherlock-Molly relationship.  Maybe some increased kindness on Sherlock's part, which I expect to see across his relationships....For me, I think Sherlock smashed the coffin because he had reached his limit on being manipulated.

The first is what Moffat basically said in EW and the second is what Gatiss said on the season 4 DVD. What they haven't said is whether Molly would be different. I would really hope they'd write her as moved on from her feelings for Sherlock if the show comes back because it's just not realistic for someone to be friends with someone who doesn't reciprocate their feelings forever. I'd hope there would be some movement on that front at least. I don't expect it but I hope for it.

 

Someone suggested he's just mad because Eurus tricked him, and that's a perfectly sound analysis. But I'm always hoping we'll go deeper. :d

Of course everyone can go deeper and see what they see, I just don't think it's intended by the show. Moftiss just aren't that deep IMO.

[Boton]

Oh god, now I'm imagining the fanfics if he had been forced to say "I love you" to Lestrade.

 

....

 

That's why it's vivisection ... Eurus has brought out feelings of shame and failure, which are things that are painful for a person to accept about themselves. (Men, particularly, methinks.)

 

 

 

I would pay for that fan fic.  Not because I'm a Sherstrade shipper, but because I think it would be hilarious!

 

You know, for someone who really has no clear visceral understanding of emotion, Eurus sure does know enough from research to be able to draw some very fine distinctions in her experimentation.  It's almost like she's a Dalek, but then again, why would Moftiss have a deep enough understanding of Dr. Who to use that same approach?   :D

 

 

 

 What they haven't said is whether Molly would be different. I would really hope they'd write her as moved on from her feelings for Sherlock if the show comes back because it's just not realistic for someone to be friends with someone who doesn't reciprocate their feelings forever. I'd hope there would be some movement on that front at least. I don't expect it but I hope for it.

 

 

 

I'm hoping for the show to come back and we find out that Molly has married Lestrade!  

[Arcadia]

Yes, just who was Lestrade dating when Sherlock told him "she's not the one?" Why did they insert that little plot point, hmmmm? And who does Sherlock think IS the one, hm? Hmm? :d

 

Lestrade's, what, at least 20 years older than Molly? Heartache for her in a very short time ... she'll still be going strong when he's in his dotage. :p And he smokes and has a stressful job, he'll probably die young if Sherlock doesn't get him killed first .... are you lasses really sure that's what you want for our Molly? How about the nice rich kid out in the country, Henry what's-his-name? Sherlock could introduce them.

[Boton]

Nah, Molly would steamroll over Henry.  She needs someone who is similar to Sherlock, but with more compassion and life experience.

 

Besides, it's not the number of years left in your life; it's the life left in your years.  :D

[gerry]

It would be funny if Sherlock tried to play matchmaker for her because she has taken a step back from their friendship until she gets over him and he thinks he could accelerate the process by finding someone she could fall for. I don't think he would be very good at it.

 

Personally I think she'd need someone really smart since she's a scientist/doctor. Tom didn't seem like the brightest bulb in the bunch. I agree with Arcadia though lestrade is too old for her.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Dunno exactly how old Greg and Molly are supposed to be, but Rupert Graves was only 15 when Louise Brealey was born. So he's not really that much older, it's just the white hair. (And just because there's snow on the roof doesn't mean there isn't a fire in the furnace.)

[J.P.]

You can surely say that Lestrade could be some years younger than Rupert. He almost looks the same age as John Watson, who, btw looks older than Martin. :D

[Carol the Dabbler]

And/or Molly could be older than she looks -- and/or it's their business who they date.

[Boton]

And Lestrade certainly looked twice when Molly walked into the Christmas party in SiB in that dress.

[Arcadia]

Heh heh heh, I knew that would stir up you lot....

 

How about if Molly marries John? They're already friends, she seems to enjoy Rosie, we've already established that Sherlock likes her so we know he won't try to drive her off, and they're closer in age and height ... perfect! It even brings her into the show more often. That's it, I'm going to start a Joholly campaign.

[sfmpco]

Sherlock would only cock-block, just as he has done repeatedly.  

[Arcadia]

Then John would have to break every bone in his body, while naming them.

[Boton]

 

 

How about if Molly marries John? They're already friends, she seems to enjoy Rosie, we've already established that Sherlock likes her so we know he won't try to drive her off, and they're closer in age and height ... perfect! It even brings her into the show more often. That's it, I'm going to start a Joholly campaign.

 

Cosign.

 

Hey, in ACD canon, Watson was married more than once, so it fits!

 

Plus, in-universe, the idea has much of what I have always liked about platonic Johnlockary - it would basically turn into a three-adult family with only two of the adults being physically intimate.

 

I like it.  Now, get on creating some fan fic, will ya?   :lol:

[Arcadia]

 

How about if Molly marries John? They're already friends, she seems to enjoy Rosie, we've already established that Sherlock likes her so we know he won't try to drive her off, and they're closer in age and height ... perfect! It even brings her into the show more often. That's it, I'm going to start a Joholly campaign.

 

Cosign.

 

Hey, in ACD canon, Watson was married more than once, so it fits!

 

Plus, in-universe, the idea has much of what I have always liked about platonic Johnlockary - it would basically turn into a three-adult family with only two of the adults being physically intimate.

 

You hope. I can think of alternatives. :P

 

I like it.  Now, get on creating some fan fic, will ya?   :lol:

 

Hey, you're the writer, I just critique the things. :P But I'll sell you my rights in the concept. I accept Paypal.

[J.P.]

Plus, in-universe, the idea has much of what I have always liked about platonic Johnlockary - it would basically turn into a three-adult family with only two of the adults being physically intimate.

You mean they would adopt Sherlock as a big brother for Rosie?

[Boton]

 

Plus, in-universe, the idea has much of what I have always liked about platonic Johnlockary - it would basically turn into a three-adult family with only two of the adults being physically intimate.

You mean they would adopt Sherlock as a big brother for Rosie?

 

 

 

Heh.  That's one approach!

 

Actually, what I like is the fan fiction that proposes a polyamorous relationship, but which doesn't include sex for or with Sherlock.  (He can sneak off to High Wycombe with Irene if you like.) But, for some reason, I'm a sucker for stories where these three best friends just decide that they are going to live together and share the caring for Rosie and be together all the time.  The fact that John and Mary (or, now in this scenario, John and Molly) are married and intimate doesn't really change the fact that this is a threesome relationship.  

 

I don't know quite why I like those kinds of stories, but I do.

[T.o.b.y]

John and Molly? Wut? My first response is, poor Molly, but then she's already dated Moriarty and has a crush on Sherlock, so... And anyway, better John than Tom.

 

Can't see those two together at all, though. Neither seems to be the other's type and I don't think the characters have any chemistry.

[sfmpco]

Nice little video.

 

[gerry]

John and Molly? Wut? My first response is, poor Molly, but then she's already dated Moriarty and has a crush on Sherlock, so... And anyway, better John than Tom.

 

Can't see those two together at all, though. Neither seems to be the other's type and I don't think the characters have any chemistry.

Agreed but I also think the same about Lestrade. I don't find any of the main characters pairable with each other actually.

[Doe]

Nice little video.

 

yes it is...

[J.P.]

From Tumblr

 

fangirlhani

Deleted shot from TFP of Sherlock after he smashes the coffin. He’s a real mess here when compared to the actual shot they included afterward. Though he was visibly shaking in that one as well. Makes me wonder exactly how long he sat there when John finally thought it was safe to get him to talk again. And if this is not enough proof of how much Molly means to Sherlock, I don’t know what does. Hats off to Benedict’s performance.

 

[Doe]

Nice little video.

 

 

01:23

 

Molly's phone is closed.