Mary Morstan

[Boton]

Oh, then please, kindly explain the whole Leinster Gardens sequence, where Sherlock challenges her to prove how good a shot she is and she taunts him with "Do you really want to find out?" ostensibly to protect her secret from being discovered by the duped husband, who she would have ended up killing, or severely wounding ( no surgical shot this one!) if she hadn't changed her mind and demonstrated on the 50p piece, as she mistook his shadowy form for that of Sherlock. Assassins for hire, male or female have no place in this or any other adaptation of the main characters of ACD.

 

I understand your position, but my same analysis is in play for me.  She didn't know that the "dummy" was John, and she still had the problem of shutting Sherlock up.  At that point, Sherlock was taunting her with her own past, and that's a dangerous thing to do if you think someone has the skills and reflexes of a trained assassin.  But, he was being a drama queen. Granted, not enough justification to shoot him, but we aren't actually sure that she would have.  There's a pretty big difference between making a threat while chambering a round and actually planning to pull the trigger.

 

Let me ask you this, because I want to understand your argument:  Would this character be more acceptable to you if, as you suggest, she were not part of the universe conceived by ACD? Is there something specific about Conan Doyle's work that needs to be kept sacred inside of other adaptations? Would you be able to accept Mary as an assassin if she were not associated with Sherlock Holmes and John Watson?  (In effect, as I suggested in the other thread, could you accept Burn Notice, where the main character is a burned spy turned freelance, and his girlfriend is a former member of the IRA who left the organization and now travels around with a trunk full of C4 and a penchant for blowing things up?)

 

ETA: You also asked on the other thread about "I know the people Mary hurt."  Well, for me, that's CAM saying that.  I'm sure Mary killed several people.  Just because CAM wants to sic their families on Mary doesn't mean that they didn't need to be gotten rid of.

[Inge l-w]

Dear Boton, having never even heard of Burn Notice, much less watched it (we are a backward lot in Oldenburg with ARD, ZDF and NWF to cover our daily needs), I am in no position to comment. But sweet, helpless Mary Morstan and Mrs Smith- copy Mary Morstan lie leagues apart. Plus, she has her own agenda from the get-go in TEH, when she enlists Sherlock's help so adroitly with the skip code. He does give her a second, suspicious glance, but by then is so far gone in John rejecting him that her promise of "I'll talk him round": she is NOT seen to do such a thing,by the way, obscures the rather prominent LIAR he discerns on their first, admittedly unorthodox meeting.

Concerning your last point, since you are American, it suggests that you might be in favour of the death penalty for certain crimes, which I am not, another reason why HLV is so abhorrent to me: the world's foremost logical thinker reduced to dealing out plain old wild justice: it's just NOT on.

[Boton]

Dear Boton, having never even heard of Burn Notice, much less watched it (we are a backward lot in Oldenburg with ARD, ZDF and NWF to cover our daily needs), I am in no position to comment. But sweet, helpless Mary Morstan and Mrs Smith- copy Mary Morstan lie leagues apart. Plus, she has her own agenda from the get-go in TEH, when she enlists Sherlock's help so adroitly with the skip code. He does give her a second, suspicious glance, but by then is so far gone in John rejecting him that her promise of "I'll talk him round": she is NOT seen to do such a thing,by the way, obscures the rather prominent LIAR he discerns on their first, admittedly unorthodox meeting.

 

Well, if you ever get access to Burn Notice, watch an episode or two.  It's entertaining. (I have been trying to write a Sherlock/Burn Notice cross over fic for months, but my stupid job keeps getting in the way of my hobby!)

 

What do you think Mary's agenda is with the skip code in TEH?  I have always read in that scene that she really does want Sherlock's help rescuing John, and, not incidentally, part of her quick investigation is making sure that John is not, in fact, safe in 221B with Sherlock.

 

I'll have to disagree on "I'll talk him round."  I think the fact that she said "I like him," as soon as she got in the cab, and the fact that she keeps asking John if he's going to see Sherlock again in the "I don't shave for Sherlock Holmes" scene argue that Mary was trying to get the boys back together, and I've never ascribed any malicious intent to Mary in the whole thing.  

 

(Have a good evening; time for me to get to my nighttime commitments!)

[sfmpco]

Well said, Boton.  I'm going to offer an additional POV:

 

Mary has kept her past well-hidden (except for a couple of clues) in TEH and TSOT, even in the beginning of HLV.  She is likeable.  She is sweet.  She is able to see right through Sherlock's bullshit (which is a plus to me).  She loves John, and they have a great love for each other as well as a deep friendship.  If Mary Watson lived next door to me, I'm sure we'd be good buddies.  I think there's a lot of Amanda in the nice Mary - the kind who would say, "come on in and let's have a cuppa" for just about any reason.  She's the neighbor whose door you can knock on very early in the morning when you need help.  Mary was very helpful and empathetic with Kate.

 

Notice that Sherlock didn't go after her to confront her in private and take her out--which he could have.  He did, however, rise to the occasion as commander of the situation to get her to expose the truth.  We aren't privy to everything she confessed to John and Sherlock, but over time John did forgive her, something I think Sherlock also did pretty much as soon as she confessed.  Once she did confess, he was able to allow his body to collapse and begin the long road of a proper recovery.

 

Then in TAB we got a different picture of Mary at the end - one whose skills seem known to Mycroft as he is nonchalant when she breaks into MI5 on her cell phone.  I don't know what Mycroft knows, but clearly he knows something, and he is not bothered by that dynamic.  

 

I'm looking forward to seeing how this new dynamic works out in S4.  I don't dislike Mary at all.  Quite frankly, I'd want her as a friend if I ever had an arch enemy.

[Inge l-w]

True duplicity lies in the details: she has her own personal agenda, which currently involves hiding from her pursuers in London. We are never given the backstory of how they met: she might have been sent to flirt with an easily susceptible Three Continents Dr Watson, her remarks are always pointed: I like him being a case in point of how easily a woman can make a man believe anything she WANTS him to, even in real life. Her skill set is that of a trained assassin, agent, infiltrator. And she makes fun of both the blog and Dr Watson saving off his moustache: does that look to you as a backdrop of earnestly talking him round?

May I ask, except the superficiality of good nature she exhibits, what makes her REALLY likeable? She is, being a Moffat female character, so manipulative she can run rings around Sherlock in that department. With THIS Mary as a neighbour, and knowing what we all have seen, I would put the house up for sale and move to Freiburg, Luebeck, Ems, just as far away as I could get.

[Arcadia]

Just because I enjoy a good argument, I can't resist commenting on this! :P
 

I don't think Mary is in any way worse than either John and Sherlock at the point at which we leave her at the end of HLV.  In fact, I think that her shooting of Sherlock is somewhere between Sherlock's shooting of CAM and John's shooting of the cabbie, both of which I will deal with in brief before discussing how I see Mary.
 
1.  Sherlock's shooting of CAM is, to me, almost wholly excusable.  In fact, I was thinking today, not entirely tongue-in-cheek, that if the whole Appledore episode had taken place in the living room of 221B but in America, Mycroft could have gotten Sherlock excused under the castle doctrine in many states.  (The castle doctrine, for non-Americans, holds that you can use force to defend your property and the people who live there and is often used in cases of home invasion.)  Sherlock was clearly defending his family in this case: John, Mary, Mycroft, and even Janine.  Although Sherlock made some missteps along the way, by the time he stepped out on the Appledore terrace, his only way of defending his family plus, not incidentally, much of the Western world, was to clean out the Appledore vaults.  CAM had admitted that those resided exclusively in his head.  Sherlock's crime was one of passion undertaken as a case of preemptive defense.

As you know, I still have real problems with Sherlock killing CAM. I have problems with the castle doctrine too; for a number reasons, I don't believe lethal force is ever an "acceptable" response.
 
However, I also recognize that my pov is only truly operable in an ideal world, which ours ain't ... and however much I kick against it, Sherlock operates in a world where it is, apparently, a heroic act to defend your family by putting a bullet in the brain of an unarmed man. (Still kicking! ) I do think that scenario is the author's intent, however much I disagree with it.
 
So in that context, I get what you are saying, and why you find Sherlock's action excusable.
 

2.  John's shooting of Jeff Hope was, for me, the least excusable.  We excuse it because it kicks off the Holmes-Watson friendship, but, to me, John had just moved in with a guy he doesn't know who is at minimum a drug user, who inspires ire from everyone he works with, and who has caused one of his "coworkers" to say that she thinks he's capable one day of murder.  Additionally, it's a guy who apparently has a rich and well-connected arch enemy (who John didn't know until the end was really his brother) that doesn't seem to cause Sherlock any kind of concern.  And yet John picks up a gun and kills someone to stop this possibly-psychopathic guy from playing Russian Roulette according to rules that John cannot possibly fully understand because he's standing a building away.  I appreciate that it establishes John as a BAMF, but that was clearly a cold-blooded murder.

For this, I have to resort to the same reasoning you used to excuse Sherlock; however improbable it might seem, I truly believe that in that short time, Sherlock had already become John's "family;" as someone worthy of his loyalty, aid and protection. Given that, I find it perfectly plausible that John believed he had to do something, or his new friend would die. In my perfect world, he would have injured the cabbie, not killed him, but I think we've already established that Moftiss considers execution an acceptable solution in Sherlock's world.
 

3.  Which brings us to Mary.  We dislike what she did because she shot Sherlock, but really, her crime was less severe that either of the above and, in addition, more similar to Sherlock's.  Mary was protecting her family.

I think my problem with this is ... Sherlock is her family too. He's part of the package she gets when she gets John, and she knows it. It's no different than shooting John, really.
 
Having said that, I don't think I would have disliked it any less if she had shot, say, Bill Wiggins, under similar circumstances. I don't like Wiggins, but I don't think he deserves to be shot. No, that's not quite right ... I don't know whether he deserves to be shot or not, nor do I care. What matters to me is, I don't think Mary has the moral authority to make that decision. (I don't think Sherlock does either, but we've already covered that territory....)
 

 Look at the way that interaction took place.  Sherlock tries to talk Mary down, and she gives him warning.  "Sherlock, I swear, if you take one more step I will shoot you."  And Sherlock, who doesn't yet know that she's a former intelligence agent (he figured that out in the hospital after turning down the morphine), almost belittles her position by reminding her of John:  "No, Mrs. Watson, you won't."  Sherlock, bless him, was expecting to find a hysterical woman in the form of Lady Smallwood, and he really didn't change his plan of attack just because the woman he found was Mary.  So, in a way, she's another woman he's underestimated.

Is it just me? When Mary said "I will shoot you," I heard it in the sense of "I will kill you." And I must have assumed Sherlock thought the same thing. I know many people think Sherlock was being a bit patronizing to her, but I took it to be something different; when he said "No you won't," I thought he meant "no, Mrs. Watson, you won't kill me, because you know me and love me, and you know killing me would destroy your husband." And he was correct; she couldn't kill him, and I think it was for those reasons. If her own safety had truly been her sole concern, I believe he'd be dead now. But she let sentiment get in the way (and that's one reason I think sentiment can be a strength, not just a weakness; weakness would have been to shoot him in the head and scurry away to freedom. Sentiment gave her the courage to take a chance, and let him live.) (Although she could have been a little less drastic about it....)
 
I don't think the fact that Sherlock survived justifies her action, though, any more than I think Sherlock was justified in his; unless you adopt the Mofftiss rule. Which seems to be, if Sherlock approves, that's all the justification you need. (Talk about hero worship! ) And it's clear to me that Sherlock approves of Mary.

[Arcadia]

Oh, then please, kindly explain the whole Leinster Gardens sequence, where Sherlock challenges her to prove how good a shot she is and she taunts him with "Do you really want to find out?" ostensibly to protect her secret from being discovered by the duped husband, who she would have ended up killing, or severely wounding ( no surgical shot this one!) if she hadn't changed her mind and demonstrated on the 50p piece, as she mistook his shadowy form for that of Sherlock. Assassins for hire, male or female have no place in this or any other adaptation of the main characters of ACD.

I never for a moment believed she was looking for Sherlock with the intent to kill him that night. She'd had her chance to do that (more than one chance, probably) and had already decided it was not an acceptable solution. But that's the problem with people who use guns; they feel the need to wave them around to prove how scary and dangerous they are. I think Sherlock was already way ahead of her by that time, and knew exactly how she would react. He just needed to prove it to John.

 

Well said, Boton.  I'm going to offer an additional POV:

 

Mary has kept her past well-hidden (except for a couple of clues) in TEH and TSOT, even in the beginning of HLV.  She is likeable.  She is sweet.  She is able to see right through Sherlock's bullshit (which is a plus to me).  She loves John, and they have a great love for each other as well as a deep friendship.  If Mary Watson lived next door to me, I'm sure we'd be good buddies.  I think there's a lot of Amanda in the nice Mary - the kind who would say, "come on in and let's have a cuppa" for just about any reason.  She's the neighbor whose door you can knock on very early in the morning when you need help.  Mary was very helpful and empathetic with Kate.

True duplicity lies in the details: she has her own personal agenda, which currently involves hiding from her pursuers in London. We are never given the backstory of how they met: she might have been sent to flirt with an easily susceptible Three Continents Dr Watson, her remarks are always pointed: I like him being a case in point of how easily a woman can make a man believe anything she WANTS him to, even in real life. Her skill set is that of a trained assassin, agent, infiltrator. And she makes fun of both the blog and Dr Watson saving off his moustache: does that look to you as a backdrop of earnestly talking him round?

Yes. It shows that they are comfortable together; she can tease him, and he's not such a self-important prick that he can't take a little ribbing from his girlfriend. And if they're comfortable together, then earnest talks are possible.

 

May I ask, except the superficiality of good nature she exhibits, what makes her REALLY likeable?

I was going to make a list, but I see sfmpco's already done so, so I'll just refer you to hers.

 

I like Mary, a lot. I don't like what she did. But I'm not ready to throw her overboard for that, not yet. And probably won't, unless Sherlock decides against her in the end. Because apparently I have no will of my own where he's concerned... :P

[Caya]

I'll keep it brief and just quote Jadzia:

 

Jim from IT Mary introduced as a love interest to one of the characters, but it turns out in an epic plot twist that he she was actually a criminal mastermind killer for hire who lied about their identity to their girlfriend spouse and who then strapped explosives to John Watson  shot Sherlock in the chest, but no, he’s she’s not a villain AT ALL.

[J.P.]

 

Then in TAB we got a different picture of Mary at the end - one whose skills seem known to Mycroft as he is nonchalant when she breaks into MI5 on her cell phone.  I don't know what Mycroft knows, but clearly he knows something, and he is not bothered by that dynamic.

That's why I'm sceptic about if those scenes were real. If not - it would be Sherlock's idealized vision of Mary. Super smart, smarter than Mycroft... better than live. One could even explain that with help of the theory of cognitive dissonance.

Will have to wait until S4 to build an opinion.

[Boton]

 

 

Then in TAB we got a different picture of Mary at the end - one whose skills seem known to Mycroft as he is nonchalant when she breaks into MI5 on her cell phone.  I don't know what Mycroft knows, but clearly he knows something, and he is not bothered by that dynamic.

That's why I'm sceptic about if those scenes were real. If not - it would be Sherlock's idealized vision of Mary. Super smart, smarter than Mycroft... better than live. One could even explain that with help of the theory of cognitive dissonance.

Will have to wait until S4 to build an opinion.

 

 

I believe those scenes are real, but I think there's enough of Mary being a BAMF in the Victorian hallucinations to suggest to me that Sherlock really does think, on some level, that he and Mary should have gotten married.  Oh, maybe not for the sex and everything, but for the crime fighting!  (And we've already established with the Molly faux-date that he thinks "solve crimes" is a more intimate date than anything else.   ;) )

[T.o.b.y]

Sooooo... I've been thinking about Mary lately. (Whatever we may think of her, you have to give the series credit for creating a character that offers so much food for so prolonged a discussion).

 

More specifically, I have been wondering whether I like her or not, and finding that all in all, I do not, I have been wondering why. The "usual" reasons do not apply in my case: I don't think she gets in the way of anything of vital importance and I don't really mind that she shot Sherlock in the chest and lied to John about her identity either. Of course I don't condone those actions, but they aren't what provokes a negative gut reaction within me.

 

I've mulled this over in the back of my brain for the past few days (yeah, I know it's insane to think so much about fictional people in a little TV show that airs every few years. I know. I know. But extensive thinking about fiction I enjoy is my hobby, so there). And I've come to a conclusion: Mary bothers me because 

1.) I have one idea about what the series is trying to tell me about her and her relationship with the other characters and another one about what seems plausible to me personally, so there's a constant dissonance in my perception of her and this causes me discomfort

2.) Mary does not work very well as a secondary character, and especially not as a secondary character in this particular setting

 

More on 1.):

I am fairly convinced that Mary is meant to be likable. John loves her (understatement - she's truly The Love of His Life and The One For Him). Sherlock likes her, likes her well enough even to allow his feelings for her to cloud his judgment and willfully ignore all the warning sings she was giving off until she literally blew up in... well, not his face, but his chest. She's done a few morally murky deeds, but she is on the side of the angels and now part of the team. Every other character likes her as well, from Mrs Hudson to presumably even the lofty Mycroft (assuming the scene on the plane was real, which I admit is doubtful).

But I don't find her likable. She can be very funny, warm and charming, yes. But her humor has a decidedly cruel edge to it in my option, her charm is cocky and her warmth feels fake (which it may well be, given what a frighteningly excellent actress she must be - Mary, I mean, not Ms Abbington, who of course is an amazing actress and from all I've seen and heard also a lovely person). Honestly, I am not sure what John sees in her. And I find Sherlock's affection for her hard to believe in - and vice versa. I feel that I am meant to believe in it, than their mutual affection is fictional reality, but it just doesn't feel right to me. Also, what alternative do they have but like each other? Neither is willing to risk losing John. John loves both (in different ways, but probably with equal intensity). They have to love each other in order to to make this little triangle work. It's a relationship that in my mind bears more resemblance to that between a mother- and daughter-in-law than a good friendship. It feels forced to me. And there are dozens of little moments where I am almost sure I am willfully over- / misinterpreting, but where it seems to me that the mask crumbles slightly on both sides and an underlying antagonism between the two surfaces very briefly. I am probably only seeing this because it's what I would find more believable.

 

About 2.)

Mary is not just Sherlock with breasts, she's Better Sherlock with breasts. She has at least equal powers of observation, is at least as intelligent and has at least as good a memory as him. She's more ruthless, much better than him at pretending to be someone else and faking emotions, more mysterious and more badass. Sociopath? You bet. And pretty darn high functioning too. Her skill set is at least as varied (and as unbelievable). To top it off, she's also a better shot than John and according to The Abominable Bride, she may have first class hacking abilities as well and be more competent in the area of national security than even Mycroft. She has just as close a bond with John, too, but even better: She's married to him and they can have sex in addition to everything else. They can (and will) even raise a family.

She's also got the necessary motivation to be a hero (of sorts). "People like Magnussen should be killed. That's why there's people like me". She's got values. Of sorts.

When Sherlock gets on the plane at the end of His Last Vow, the scene is so sad to me in particular because at this point in the series, he is literally superfluous. He's become replaceable. He can go and sacrifice himself in one last act of glorious madness and then he can leave because... well, he said it himself:

"The game is never over, John ... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end."

The great Sherlock Holmes has become expendable like every one of us ordinary goldfish. Somebody else can do his job. In every way. And this, in my mind, does vital damage to the basic concept of the series.

Because if you keep Mary in the background from now on, push her back into the role of John's wife who occasionally has a few lines, that's wildly unfair to her and a huge waste of an actually pretty awesome character. Mary should have her own show. A forty-something ex-assassin gone rogue living undercover as a nurse with a husband and child on the way, haunted by the shadows of her past, with enemies still living and on the lookout and odious blackmailers taking advantage of her situation for their own dastardly ends? Would I ever watch that.

 

You know, if I had met her under different circumstances, I think I could get really excited over Mary. She would be an unbelievable (anti-) hero in her own right. But as a minor character in a series about Sherlock Holmes, she is both a bit of a waste and a burden. And this is probably the most critical thing you will ever hear me say about the show (unless they seriously f*** up series 4). It was so perfect before she was introduced. Her presence created a flaw. Which is not her fault. But it may play into why I don't really like her.

[Inge l-w]

If Arcadia refers to sfmpco's arguments as to why Mary is likeable, from now on I shall refer to Caya's succinct statement and Toby's marvelous analysis as to the underlying reasons for my antipathy of her, plus my own small contributions, littered all over the place, like How to fix HLV, Series 4 news and other bits and pieces. Ladies, you are spot on!

[Boton]

 

The great Sherlock Holmes has become expendable like every one of us ordinary goldfish. Somebody else can do his job. In every way. And this, in my mind, does vital damage to the basic concept of the series.

Because if you keep Mary in the background from now on, push her back into the role of John's wife who occasionally has a few lines, that's wildly unfair to her and a huge waste of an actually pretty awesome character. Mary should have her own show. A forty-something ex-assassin gone rogue living undercover as a nurse with a husband and child on the way, haunted by the shadows of her past, with enemies still living and on the lookout and odious blackmailers taking advantage of her situation for their own dastardly ends? Would I ever watch that.

 

You know, if I had met her under different circumstances, I think I could get really excited over Mary. She would be an unbelievable (anti-) hero in her own right. But as a minor character in a series about Sherlock Holmes, she is both a bit of a waste and a burden. And this is probably the most critical thing you will ever hear me say about the show (unless they seriously f*** up series 4). It was so perfect before she was introduced. Her presence created a flaw. Which is not her fault. But it may play into why I don't really like her.

 

I wanted to copy everything Toby said, but it is this last part that I really agree with.  Obviously, I like Mary.  I excuse any morally ambiguous actions she may have undertaken under the same rules that I excuse them in our protagonists.  (That, plus the fact that it is a TV show, and morals or lack thereof just don't bother me any more in entertainment.)  I love AA, and I thought that TAB did a convincing job of showing what a crime-solving trio would look like in a sort of platonic Johnlockary that I find appealing.

 

However, I totally agree with the above.  The show has a "Mary Morstan problem," and I think it is because they couldn't quite figure out how to update the Victorian character for a modern audience.  That, or we haven't gotten to the point of their update.  ACD Watson gets married in a time in which being married shouldn't change his public lifestyle all that much.  Modern John then must get married, but the expectations of a married father are different.  You have to do a lot of story-telling gymnastics to make Mary into someone modern audiences would tolerate without her destroying the Holmes-Watson dynamic in some way.

 

I saw a snarky comment on Tumblr that I'm halfway hoping is true: that Janine and Mary are really Janine Moriarty (sister of Jim) and Mary Moran (actually Moran), and pretty soon they spin off on their own and become the arch enemies that Sherlock and John fight.  It sure wouldn't be true to ACD canon, but it would be a hoot!

[J.P.]

Oh, Toby, what a great post (again). It's very interesting what you write about her function in the show. But you made me curious about

 

And there are dozens of little moments where I am almost sure I am willfully over- / misinterpreting, but where it seems to me that the mask crumbles slightly on both sides and an underlying antagonism between the two surfaces very briefly. I am probably only seeing this because it's what I would find more believable.

Could you point out some of them? :D

[Arcadia]

I'll keep it brief and just quote Jadzia:

 

Jim from IT Mary introduced as a love interest to one of the characters, but it turns out in an epic plot twist that he she was actually a criminal mastermind killer for hire who lied about their identity to their girlfriend spouse and who then strapped explosives to John Watson  shot Sherlock in the chest, but no, he’s she’s not a villain AT ALL.

I'm not sure that anyone is saying she's not a villain; it's more trying to explain why some of us find her likable in spite of the fact that she is a villain. Just like some people find Moriarty really appealing, in spite of the, you know, mass murders. Personally, I find him a whole different kind of icky, but that's me.

 

I guess it depends, at least in part, on whether you think Mary is acting or not. As we eventually discovered, Jim clearly was; we are just as clearly meant to believe that Mary is not. I suppose the reasoning is, if she genuinely loves John, she must not be all bad ... ???? I admit it makes no real world sense. :P But it sure seems the only explanation being offered by Moftiss ... so far.

 

When I say I like her, I mean I like her personality. I don't see the little cruelties and antagonisms that Toby mentions, I just see the warm and funny bits. I like the way she teases John when he refuses to acknowledge his own feelings, and I like the way she teases Sherlock when he gets too full of himself. Those moments feel very real to me. I like the "impish humor" that Sherlock described. I like her calmness when everyone else is overreacting. And I have no problem with her being just as smart or smarter than the men, because she doesn't act like that makes her all better, like Someone does. (Two someones!) :P And mostly I think I like her because she shows up another side of Sherlock; he behaves a little better when she's around. And he's at ease with her. I enjoy seeing those bits of him every once in awhile.

 

But -- I don't like what she IS. An ex-assassin? Are they kidding? What she did to Sherlock aside, it's just too over the top. Why not ... oh, I don't know, a disbarred lawyer, or a shady ex-cop? I would find those far more believable, but just as morally ambiguous. Plus I find it hard to reconcile how I perceive Mary's personality, and what I think an assassin would actually be like. I can't really imagine an assassin smiling sweetly, for example.

 

I guess it's sort of the same way I feel about Sherlock and CAM; I adore Sherlock. I have from the moment I set eyes on him. He's an ass and a jerk, but for some reason (and I suspect the reason has the initials BC) I just adore him. But I hate what he did to CAM; more than I hate what Mary did to Sherlock. It almost spoils the show for me, because I have to partition off that moment emotionally, in order to enjoy the rest of the series. And it's not because I liked CAM ... I think he got better than he deserved. But I don't think Sherlock should have been the one to do it; it opens up a side of his character that I would prefer him not to have. Having a dark side is one thing; being an unrepentant killer is a whole different thing. But I still adore him. It makes no sense to me, but there it is.

 

So I guess I just extend the same courtesy to Mary ... because he does. I can almost guarantee you that if Sherlock hated her, I would too, John's feelings about it all be damned. (Sorry John!) Because I have no will of my own yadda yadda. :P

[Caya]

Oh, Toby, what a great post (again). It's very interesting what you write about her function in the show. But you made me curious about

 

And there are dozens of little moments where I am almost sure I am willfully over- / misinterpreting, but where it seems to me that the mask crumbles slightly on both sides and an underlying antagonism between the two surfaces very briefly. I am probably only seeing this because it's what I would find more believable.

Could you point out some of them? :D

 

They're pretty hard to catch, fleeting, which either means we're imagining things or speaks volumes about the acting ability of both Mr. Cumberbatch and Ms. Abbington.

 

 

 

 

I'll keep it brief and just quote Jadzia:

 

Jim from IT Mary introduced as a love interest to one of the characters, but it turns out in an epic plot twist that he she was actually a criminal mastermind killer for hire who lied about their identity to their girlfriend spouse and who then strapped explosives to John Watson  shot Sherlock in the chest, but no, he’s she’s not a villain AT ALL.

I'm not sure that anyone is saying she's not a villain; it's more trying to explain why some of us find her likable in spite of the fact that she is a villain. Just like some people find Moriarty really appealing, in spite of the, you know, mass murders. Personally, I find him a whole different kind of icky, but that's me.

 

You'll find plenty of people arguing just that earlier in the thread, iirc. Like maybe she only killed really evil people (which is why she says that if John reads the Agra stick he won't love her anymore, right?) and similar. Also, for that matter, I get the impression that Moftiss do - she certainly seemed to be presented as an accepted part of the team in Bride.

[Arcadia]

Well, that's true. I guess I was speaking for myself.

 

I think you've hit on what troubles me the most ... the idea that the Moftissess present shooting people as a perfectly okay thing to do. I know, I know, it's "just" fiction ... but it bugs me. A lot, if I let it. Something else I have to distance myself from ...

[Van Buren Supernova]

I like Mary and can see her as a good friend potential. She is funny, witty, smart, easy going, understanding and 'drama-free', not typical girly type that I find myself too different to get along with. Oh, she is a good neighbor too, remember Kate? I would definitely stay next to her.

 

I don't like Mary because she shoots Sherlock. Simple as that with hundreds of reasons behind. It's worse that Sherlock-Magnussen and John-Jeff Hope. It's so selfish in too many levels, I can't understand that. I would even say that it's arguably worse than many things Moriarty does. Harming strangers is not acceptable but harming loved ones is horrifying, especially for selfish reason.

 

Whether she would mess up or has a good purpose in the story, I keep my mind open. It's advantage for me coming with fresh Pov of the stories. That is not how I normally operate but will try to keep it that way, that I don't have anything canon and will make BBC as my canon.

[Inge l-w]

Oh, being nebulous helps a lot! You can have a foot in both camps! I am green with envy on that point But THIS Mary has a lot of baggage we have not been shown, and her teaming up with Janine is just the tip of the iceberg: did she do so for exactly the same reason Sherlock tried the engagement stunt on Janine: to get closer to Magnussen, or was it on orders from higher up? And I don't mean Mycroft!

[T.o.b.y]

The show has a "Mary Morstan problem," and I think it is because they couldn't quite figure out how to update the Victorian character for a modern audience.  That, or we haven't gotten to the point of their update.  ACD Watson gets married in a time in which being married shouldn't change his public lifestyle all that much.  Modern John then must get married, but the expectations of a married father are different.  You have to do a lot of story-telling gymnastics to make Mary into someone modern audiences would tolerate without her destroying the Holmes-Watson dynamic in some way.

 

The original Mary wasn't a major character. She was an attractive client whom Dr Watson fell in love with and married, presumably because Doyle or his publisher thought the book would sell better if it had a romantic subplot (plus maybe to prove a point). After that, we hardly hear or see her again and the adventures continue as before. She doesn't have much personality, either. We know that she is compassionate and fairly brave and intelligent. She doesn't seem to have much of a problem with her husband going off to solve cases with Mr Holmes once in a while, in fact, she encourages it. That's all we know. It's pretty far fetched to turn her into an ex-assassin...

 

I suspect the main reason why Mary was introduced on Sherlock was that they really wanted to show the wedding and how it affects Sherlock that John gets married and moves away. Then they had a few ideas too many for her background and things got out of hand.

 

 

 

And there are dozens of little moments where I am almost sure I am willfully over- / misinterpreting, but where it seems to me that the mask crumbles slightly on both sides and an underlying antagonism between the two surfaces very briefly. I am probably only seeing this because it's what I would find more believable.

Could you point out some of them? :D

 

- Mary making fun of how John describes Sherlock on his blog (the "I don't shave for Sherlock Holmes" scene)

- The way Mary speaks about Sherlock in the scene at her house, when Kate is there

- Mary's evil look in the mind palace sequence in His Last Vow, also Sherlock's inner Moriarty calling her "that wife" there

 

I bet there's more, and I'll let you know after the next rewatch what else I noticed, but these are the first three I can think of off the top of my head. Also, Mary is almost abominably cheerful when she says goodbye to Sherlock on the airfield, but then, maybe she knew he was coming back and / or she was trying to make the whole thing easier for him in a "stiff upper lip" kind of way. I am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt there.

 

 

I'm not sure that anyone is saying she's not a villain; it's more trying to explain why some of us find her likable in spite of the fact that she is a villain.

 

I don't think Mary is meant to be a villain. I understand why people would see her that way, but I don't think that's what the writers have in mind.

 

 

I guess it depends, at least in part, on whether you think Mary is acting or not. As we eventually discovered, Jim clearly was; we are just as clearly meant to believe that Mary is not. I suppose the reasoning is, if she genuinely loves John, she must not be all bad ... ???? I admit it makes no real world sense. :P But it sure seems the only explanation being offered by Moftiss ... so far.

 

When I say I like her, I mean I like her personality. I don't see the little cruelties and antagonisms that Toby mentions, I just see the warm and funny bits. I like the way she teases John when he refuses to acknowledge his own feelings, and I like the way she teases Sherlock when he gets too full of himself. Those moments feel very real to me. I like the "impish humor" that Sherlock described. I like her calmness when everyone else is overreacting. And I have no problem with her being just as smart or smarter than the men, because she doesn't act like that makes her all better, like Someone does. (Two someones!) :P And mostly I think I like her because she shows up another side of Sherlock; he behaves a little better when she's around. And he's at ease with her. I enjoy seeing those bits of him every once in awhile.

 

See, these are precisely the things I don't like. I have the impression that your reaction is the one that the audience is supposed to have, but it doesn't work for me. I don't appreciate how she brings Sherlock "to order" and how tame he is around her. It even scares me a little bit. He doesn't become this docile for anybody else. I feel he's out of character with her and that makes me feel uncomfortable. Arrogant immature a-hole that he is sometimes, I really like the Sherlock I first met in series 1 and I hate to see him change too much. I can't shake the impression that he's afraid of Mary, or at least intimidated by her. It makes me cringe.

 

I like Mary and can see her as a good friend potential. She is funny, witty, smart, easy going, understanding and 'drama-free', not typical girly type that I find myself too different to get along with. Oh, she is a good neighbor too, remember Kate? I would definitely stay next to her.

 

She'd shoot you in the head if you found out too much about her, though... And I am always wary of "easy-going, drama-free, "not typical girl" characters. They set off a "male fantasy" whisper inside my feminist brain. :P Plus I can't really identify with them. I am definitely neither easy-going nor drama-free. I am more like Sherlock... :D

Although of all the characters on the show, I identify most with Molly. Then comes Sherlock (I think I am a Sherlock-Molly-hybrid :lol:) and as I grow older, I feel myself evolving more and more towards Mrs Hudson (I bloody love Mrs Hudson). 

[Shadow Dweller]

I like Mary and can see her as a good friend potential. She is funny, witty, smart, easy going, understanding and 'drama-free', not typical girly type that I find myself too different to get along with. Oh, she is a good neighbor too, remember Kate? I would definitely stay next to her.

 

I don't like Mary because she shoots Sherlock. Simple as that with hundreds of reasons behind. It's worse that Sherlock-Magnussen and John-Jeff Hope. It's so selfish in too many levels, I can't understand that. I would even say that it's arguably worse than many things Moriarty does. Harming strangers is not acceptable but harming loved ones is horrifying, especially for selfish reason.

 

Whether she would mess up or has a good purpose in the story, I keep my mind open. It's advantage for me coming with fresh Pov of the stories. That is not how I normally operate but will try to keep it that way, that I don't have anything canon and will make BBC as my canon.

That's assuming that Mary loves Sherlock. I think she sees him more as a little boy to indulge (within limits). :lol:

 

The rest I agree with you. Give me drama-free friend anytime, that would be a breathe of fresh air to me. *Grins* But as much as I like her, I wouldn't hesitate to sacrifice her if that's my beloved little brother's life in line.

[Inge l-w]

Seeing as I always came to be THIS Sherlock in ShadowDweller's quizzes, my reaction to Ms Morstan would be deep mistrust and wariness, I would never befriend a duplicitous character like her, it would be demeaning, and I already have my schoolroom-intelligence MENSA certificate of 163, not genius territory, but in the top five percentile. So a super-smart, trigger-happy, gun-for-hire with several chips on her shoulder and a fake cheeriness about her would not be endearing or likeable in real life, so why should she be in fiction? If I were the Queen in Alice, the pretty blonde bobbed head would definitely be separated from her shoulders just for her mean streak towards both her husband and Sherlock.

She is too perfectly bad to be good in any sense.

[Van Buren Supernova]

Try DVDs, sturdier than records.

[Arcadia]

Huh?

[Arcadia]

Quiz

The following words have been used by the members of this forum to describe which "BBC Sherlock" character?
smart
manipulative
witty
patronizing
taunting
charming
dangerous
clever
liar
cocky
observant
unrepentant
attractive