Episode 2.1, "A Scandal In Belgravia"

[Carol the Dabbler]

There was an interview with her where she mentioned it (though my recollection was more like a week of crying).  Somebody posted a link recently, not sure which thread.

[Pseudonym]

I'm mystified why you would tell the world something like that. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

Of course the publication may have made up the whole thing. Herlock posted the link in his Google News thread (thought I knew how to link to it, but apparently not).  Anyhow, it was in Metro and, yes, it said a week.

Added:  Here's a link to the article.  Still not sure how to link to Herlock's post.  Apparently the original interview article is in the May issue of something called Red magazine.

[Hikari]

37 minutes ago, Pseudonym said:

I'm mystified why you would tell the world something like that. 

http://metro.co.uk/2018/04/06/amanda-abbington-opens-confidence-since-martin-freeman-split-7447611/amp/

Here's the link to the article which was posted in the Sherlock Google News thread.  It does appear that there was just a week of crying mentioned, but it took her considerably longer than that to get on an even keel again.  Considering that the couple was working together daily on the set of Sherlock 4 immediately after their split or while it was still happening.

I don't think this candid admission from a normally private person is a bad thing, nor is it weakness to admit to being devastated after your partner of 16 years and the father of your two children walks away from your relationship.   I'll say in open forum right now that I lost two of my three cats in 2017, one in October and her feline sister less than three months later, and I cried every single day for six months.  Now it's down to every other day or, on a really good week, maybe every three or four days.  I think Amanda has had a more grievous situation handed to her than the loss of two cats.

I'm sad for them, sad for their kids . . .and, I confess, disappointed that if it had to happen, she was on the receiving end.  When I first heard the news, my immediate thought was 'She's had enough and told him to move out.'  She has been, in practice if not in name, a single mum for the last half of their relationship, since 2011 and the Hobbit insanity began.  So her current daily life probably doesn't feel a whole lot different than it has for much of her kids' childhoods.  In her shoes, I might have let people assume that the split was my idea, just because it feels far more empowering, but if this is the truth, then there's no reason to keep a lid on it, either, if it helps her cope.  We can't know what it was like behind closed doors, of course . . he might have a different story to tell.  But even he could not deny that she has sacrificed her own acting career to a large degree to be the primary caregiver to their children at home while he's been busy becoming an international star, so it's got to sting all the more that he's finished with her.  She has legions of company in that. 

[Arcadia]

Another article I seem to have previously missed. Interview with Moffat. This one from 2012, appears to be just after Scandal aired.

Read carefully, the way it's formatted it's sometimes hard to tell which are the interviewers questions and which are Moffat's answers. Nothing really new here, but I always like seeing what creators have to say about their own creations.

https://site.douban.com/126627/widget/notes/6151448/note/213702205/

The part that struck me most was in answer to this question: "I loved that line where Irene says to Watson, ‘you are a couple.’ They’re not sexually involved, but they are partners. Given that there’s always been this speculation over Watson and Holmes, I thought that was an interesting way to resolve the tension." First of all, I thought that was an interesting question, because I don't see any resolution of tension! Then there's this part of Stephen's answer, which mostly matches what I've always thought, so of course I like it:  

"It’s always definitely a love story. I don’t see why that means that sex has to be involved. What a weirdly sexualized world we live in where you insist they much be having sex as well. Why would they? John isn’t wired that way, whatever Sherlock is. ... Sex is not really the issue among any of these people. Love is. Infatuation is. I think John Watson is infatuated with and fascinated by Sherlock Holmes. I think Sherlock Holmes absolutley relies completely and utterly on John Watson and is devoted to him. ... Who says any of them are having sex with each other?"

The other interesting bit (to me) was this: 

"What Mark and I always say is our Sherlock is twenty years from being Basil Rathbone." So calculating from that, if there's ever another episode of Sherlock, it will be 2030 before it appears …..

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

4 hours ago, Arcadia said:

What Mark and I always say is our Sherlock is twenty years from being Basil Rathbone." So calculating from that, if there's ever another episode of Sherlock, it will be 2030 before it appears …

 

or if the currently-projected Downey hiatus is anything to go by, we may see more Sherlock in 2025 -- if we are still alive -- if fandom can survive.

[Pseudonym]

I like the idea that John is infatuated with Sherlock. It makes me wonder though, taking sex out of the equation, can 'infatuation' be truly platonic? People aren't generally infatuated by their friends. And if it's not remotely sexual, but isn't completely platonic what would that be classed as?

[Hikari]

45 minutes ago, Pseudonym said:

I like the idea that John is infatuated with Sherlock. It makes me wonder though, taking sex out of the equation, can 'infatuation' be truly platonic? People aren't generally infatuated by their friends. And if it's not remotely sexual, but isn't completely platonic what would that be classed as?

I think people can be infatuated by their friends, only, with sexual attraction removed from the equation, it becomes 'hero worship.'  That's what I'd call it.  John's admiration is not lascivious, but it is constant and complete.  Even when the two are squabbling, Watson stands in awe of his friend's gifts and marvels at them, and in some part of himself strives to be more like Holmes.  It's a platonic love affair that's been going on since 1880. 

[Arcadia]

I quite agree with that. Although I think "infatuation" implies that John's fascination with Sherlock is fleeting rather than enduring. The strength and constancy of his affection rises above infatuation, it seems to me. I think "love" is a more accurate word, and absolutely, love can be truly platonic. Most loves are, aren't they?

[Hikari]

14 hours ago, Arcadia said:

I quite agree with that. Although I think "infatuation" implies that John's fascination with Sherlock is fleeting rather than enduring. The strength and constancy of his affection rises above infatuation, it seems to me. I think "love" is a more accurate word, and absolutely, love can be truly platonic. Most loves are, aren't they?

I agree that 'infatuation' isn't quite the word, since it implies a strong, all-consuming fascination/passion that is, in the normal run of human life, fleeting and transient.  People get infatuated with one another, call that love and then get married, only to get divorced a few years later when the infatuation dims and they assume, since they've 'fallen out of love' with the object of their previous infatuation, that they need to move on and find that mountaintop high emotional experience with someone else.

In Watson's case, though, the fascination with Sherlock Holmes and the excitement of his association never fully wore off, even though two marriages and changing digs numerous times and his own intermittently demanding career and life circumstances.  It was an enduring regard but that infatuation element never completely left.  So maybe 'fascination' is a better word?  But there was definitely a more mature love in play too, or else Watson would have left Holmes after a month or two when the irritations of life with him got to be too much.  Watson reached the limits of his endurance many times over the years, but he never exceeded them, because he stayed.  Even when they were not physically cohabitating anymore, there was an enduring emotional bond.  Watson fulfilled all the functions of a loyal and loving partner actually, though I don't mean that in the eros sense.  We should all be so lucky as to have a Watson.  As Benedict put it when describing Martin's work, Watson is everything you could need at your right hand.

[T.o.b.y]

15 hours ago, Arcadia said:

I quite agree with that. Although I think "infatuation" implies that John's fascination with Sherlock is fleeting rather than enduring. The strength and constancy of his affection rises above infatuation, it seems to me. I think "love" is a more accurate word, and absolutely, love can be truly platonic. Most loves are, aren't they?

Agreed. 

I think John is absolutely (platonically) infatuated at first which makes him all the more crusty later when the rose tinted glasses come off. But they do build a genuine friendship that goes beyond hero worship eventually. 

[Pseudonym]

Fully agree love can be platonic. Still not 100% sure on infatuation though. 

[Arcadia]

Maybe it depends on what/whom you're infatuated with? Is my infatuation with chocolate purely platonic? Hmmm, somehow that doesn't fit, considering what I do to chocolate when I meet it..... 

Actually, I don't think I want to go any further with that line of reasoning. I think I'll just opt for Hikari's phrase, "fascination", and side-step the issue.

[Pseudonym]

Ewww, what do you do? No, no, I don't want to know! 

[Arcadia]

My lips are sealed (possibly with chocolate.....)

[Carol the Dabbler]

On 6/7/2018 at 11:52 AM, Pseudonym said:

I like the idea that John is infatuated with Sherlock. It makes me wonder though, taking sex out of the equation, can 'infatuation' be truly platonic? People aren't generally infatuated by their friends. 

I remember being infatuated with some of the girls I knew when I was in my early teens.  Don't think there was anything sexual about it, I just desperately wanted to be their friend -- but alas they never seemed to notice me.  John has had far better luck, thank goodness!

[Inge l-w]

Going back to the Irene-Sherlock dynamic, what are your views about the possibility of the Scandal in Bohemia/Belgravia beats having been taken from the real-life story of the Jersey Lily (Lily Langtry) and the Prince of Wales ( later Edward VII) affair?

[Carol the Dabbler]

Although I had heard of Lily (or Lillie) Langtry, I must admit that I knew very little about her, so that connection had never occurred to me.  However after reading her Wikipedia page, I must say it seems quite plausible!  Langtry was born on the Isle of Jersey, and Adler was born in New Jersey, both in the 1850's, both were famous stage personalities, and each was involved with a royal personage.

It's interesting that when Langtry left the Isle of Jersey, she and her new husband moved to Belgravia -- I wonder if that had any influence on Moftiss's choice of episode title?

[Inspector Baynes]

One would not be alone in seeing the connection.  As Redmond notes in his book Lives Beyond Baker Street..

"King Edward VII, previously Albert Edward, Prince of Wales (1841–1910), was the oldest son of Queen Victoria and Albert, the Prince Consort. Although he became a dignified, popular, and successful king, particularly effective as “Edward the Peacemaker” in managing the squabbles among European nations, his reputation as Prince of Wales (heir to the throne) was for spendthrift luxury, gambling, and womanizing. Occasionally, as in the Tranby Croft scandal of 1891, he came close to serious trouble. His most prominent mistress was Lillie Langtry; there were numerous others, probably including the sensational actress Sarah Bernhardt. As host or guest at weekend house-parties he also had many opportunities for dalliance with society ladies. The Prince has been plausibly seen as the “illustrious client” who employs Holmes in the story of that title, and his career has echoes in the events of “A Scandal in Bohemia”. He succeeded to the throne on his mother’s death in January 1901; he was married to Princess Alexandra of Denmark, and their son George V succeeded him."    Redmond, Christopher. Lives Beyond Baker Street (pp. 174-175). MX Publishing. Kindle Edition.

Of Lillie, Redmond writes:

"Lillie Langtry, born Emilie Charlotte Le Breton (1853–1929), is one of the chief candidates to be an original of Irene Adler, though she was an actress rather than a contralto. Adler’s birth in New Jersey slightly suggests Langtry’s birth in Jersey, Channel Islands; she was known as “the Jersey Lily”. Her 1874 marriage to landowner Edward Langtry did not interfere with her theatrical career, 1881–1883 and intermittently after that, or her relationships with gentlemen ranging from American playboy Frederick Gebhard to the Prince of Wales (later Edward VII). She later managed the Imperial Theatre in London, owned race-horses, provided her endorsement to soaps and other products, and divorced and remarried, this time to aristocrat Hugo de Bathe."   Redmond, Christopher. Lives Beyond Baker Street (p. 250). MX Publishing. Kindle Edition.

Doyle used many real-life personalities and dealt with many real-life social issues and events of the times in his stories. A review of such things is a fascinating walk into history.

[besleybean]

And not always pretty!

[Inspector Baynes]

6 hours ago, besleybean said:

And not always pretty!

Indeed. It would be difficult to find social or political 'pretty' in any of human history, especially its present.
Humankind is not a pretty species. Simply the most self-indulgent, grasping, specious one.

[besleybean]

And that is why we survive and grow massive brains!

[Carol the Dabbler]

On 1/1/2023 at 9:56 AM, Inspector Baynes said:

Humankind is not a pretty species. Simply the most self-indulgent, grasping, specious one.

Is there any "pretty" species?  The standards you are saying we fail to meet are ones we've set for ourselves, based on poetry and romantic fiction.

 

[Van Buren Supernova]

On 1/3/2023 at 7:22 AM, Carol the Dabbler said:

Is there any "pretty" species?  The standards you are saying we fail to meet are ones we've set for ourselves, based on poetry and romantic fiction.

Based on Sphynx cat, Naked Mole Rat, and Xoloitzcuintli, I would say fur will help our appearance tremendously.

[Carol the Dabbler]

We weren't talking about that kind of "pretty"     But I agree with your digression!