Episode 2.1, "A Scandal In Belgravia"

[Artemis]

Sorry to go off topic a sec, but was this the thread we were talking about Sherlock/Janine fanfic? I should have saved the links and didn't, and I don't want to go digging back through the wrong thread.

 

I like her.  ^^  I always wondered if in the writer's heads, he ended up at her cottage, taking care of the bees she was going to get rid of.

 

 

[Artemis]

I think we neglect the fact that Irene has to have a really disreputable job in order for her to square up with the original Irene. And, for Sherlock to square with the original Holmes, he has to be bohemian enough to be fascinated by that and not repelled.

Agree. Is he fascinated by it though, you think? There was this: "You cater to the whims of the pathetic and take your clothes off to make an impression. Stop boring me and think." I never thought he was repelled or appalled by her profession, but I wasn't left with the impression that he was fascinated by it either, although he was by her. More disinterested.

 

Was the original Holmes fascinated by the original Adler's profession? Or just non-judgemental? My memory of the literature is a bit vague.

[gerry]

Good point. On the other hand, what are the odds that she was running from Pakistani terrorists? I had assumed that her threats came mostly from closer to home, where she apparently did most of her business.

I assumed the opposite since the CIA was involved based on what she had on her phone and she wanted protection from the British government. Depending how in bed she was so to speak with Moriarty (which I thought was a lot given she was able to get him to not kill Sherlock/John, him giving her advice to play Sherlock/Mycroft and her helping him foil Mycroft's plane diversion by giving the info to the terrorists) and how international Mortarty's network was, I thought the people she was running from were not local.

[gerry]

"He spends majority of his time manipulating people", you really think that?

Literally no. It was hyperbolic. What I meant was that he does it whenever convenient without any regard to the effect on the other person, not that he does every day but that it's part of his modus operandi. I also don't believe it's as harmless to others as you think. I don't have a problem with lying to suspects like real life cops do but manipulating Molly or that head mistress in TRF to point she would have to breathe in a bag strike me as unnecessary moments that lack compassion and are not just harmless moments justified by Sherlock working a case. Depending on how often Sherlock manipulated Molly like that, what if Molly used those small moments to delude herself into thinking Sherlock had feelings for her when in reality he was just using her to get into the morgue or to do something else he wanted?

[Pseudonym]

I don't think Irene really did anything directly to stop Moriarty killing Sherlock and John. Assuming you're talking about the pool, she called up, said she had something important from the MOD guy, Jim, thinking it might be even more important than she realised, thought it was more interesting than dying at the pool and that it might stave off his terminal boredom for a while longer. So, to quote Sherlock, he just got a better offer. Jim seems to be a fickle creature, and something else took his fancy. 

[Boton]

 

 

Do you guys think there is connection in any shape and form, about how Sherlock reacts to Irene's 'death' with how he expects John to react to his own fake death?

 

When he finds out about her being alive, he retreats, but then for the first and last time, replies her text. Of all thing, the text is very precious and I see it as him being glad that she is back. And he is receptive to her when she finally shows up again.

 

 

You mean, he didn't realize how upset John would be, because he wasn't upset by Irene's faking her death? But why would he be, unless you believe he'd actually fallen in love with her? Which I have trouble believing, tbh.

 

 

 

 

 

I've always thought that he just figured John would be "rational", the way he thinks he himself would be. 

 

 

I think that's the connection.  Not that Sherlock thinks, "Hey, I was fine when Irene faked her death; I deserve the same latitude from my friends."  More like Sherlock thinks that anything that involves The Work is the most important, and that should be obvious to everyone. I don't know that I believe he even realizes the depth of his attraction to Irene and maybe still thinks that he is just doing what is practical in some way.  I think he does a great job dismissing his own emotion, especially in the first couple of seasons.

 

 

Sorry to go off topic a sec, but was this the thread we were talking about Sherlock/Janine fanfic? I should have saved the links and didn't, and I don't want to go digging back through the wrong thread.

 

I like her.  ^^  I always wondered if in the writer's heads, he ended up at her cottage, taking care of the bees she was going to get rid of.

 

 

 

I think this is it; it is part  of one of my posts, so if you can't find it, DM me and I'll try to go through my posts and make a list again.  I have many more than I posted here.

 

As for the second point, I believe that's what Moftiss said they thought the resolution would be, and it is what I always imagine.  

 

 

I think we neglect the fact that Irene has to have a really disreputable job in order for her to square up with the original Irene.  And, for Sherlock to square with the original Holmes, he has to be bohemian enough to be fascinated by that and not repelled.

 

Agree.  Is he fascinated by it though, you think?  There was this: "You cater to the whims of the pathetic and take your clothes off to make an impression.  Stop boring me and think."  I never thought he was repelled or appalled by her profession, but I wasn't left with the impression that he was fascinated by it either, although he was fascinated by her.  More disinterested.

 

Was the original Holmes fascinated by the original Adler's profession?  Or just non-judgemental?  My memory of the literature is a bit vague.

 

 

It is so hard to tell about the original stories because, in my opinion, ACD just was horrible at writing any kind of motivation for any of the characters, including Holmes.  I've always thought that Holmes prolonged his encounters with Irene with the stupidest possible ways to solve this stupid case, but that might be ACD trying to hit a word count rather than Holmes being fascinated.

 

As for our Sherlock and the quote you said above, that's actually one of the things I read as fascination. Haven't you ever had that relationship with someone that you just spar with all the time, and it winds up making the physical attraction a huge inferno that just consumes you both, spurred on by the fact that neither of you will give the other an inch?  (No? Just me?  OK.......   )

 

Sherlock disinterested?  I don't think Sherlock has had a truly disinterested reaction to anyone or anything on this show.  He hides everything behind that veneer early on, but this is a guy that always has a visceral and emotional reaction to everything he sees. 

[SherlockedCAMPer]

Sorry to go off topic a sec, but was this the thread we were talking about Sherlock/Janine fanfic? I should have saved the links and didn't, and I don't want to go digging back through the wrong thread.

Have you tried the search function yet. That might help as well if it ends up not being in this thread as Boton also thinks. Personally, I remember reading that discussion but don't remember the thread.

[Pseudonym]

I never have any luck with the search function, I can search for the actual name of a thread and not find it. I went back a fair few pages and didn't see the fics but I might have a second closer look when I get home. 

 

Went through again, it's not this thread. :S

[Carol the Dabbler]

It is so hard to tell about the original stories because, in my opinion, ACD just was horrible at writing any kind of motivation for any of the characters, including Holmes.  I've always thought that Holmes prolonged his encounters with Irene with the stupidest possible ways to solve this stupid case, but that might be ACD trying to hit a word count rather than Holmes being fascinated.

ACD a literary hack?  Oh, surely not!  For example, take that Old West section of Study in Scarlet -- every word is absolutely integral and essential to the plot.

 

[Artemis]

As for our Sherlock and the quote you said above, that's actually one of the things I read as fascination.

 

Hm, I read the exact opposite.  I realize he's sparring with her, but "You cater to the whims of the pathetic" didn't scream "You have a fascinating profession" to me, lol.  Maybe I tend to take his words too much at face value; so when he says "Stop boring me," I tend to believe that whatever he's referencing is actually not interesting him, lol.  What I basically heard was, "I don't care, let's move on to something more interesting."  It seemed to me that he was viewing the fact of her profession as simply another fact, and not as any particular source of fascination.  I guess that's just another one of those interpretation differences again.

 

Sherlock disinterested?  I don't think Sherlock has had a truly disinterested reaction to anyone or anything on this show.  He hides everything behind that veneer early on, but this is a guy that always has a visceral and emotional reaction to everything he sees.

 

I donno, I think there are things he's disinterested in.  That might be the wrong word, but I essentially mean it as "things that don't fascinate him"; things that don't matter to him one way or the other, or don't register as important; they just are what they are.  He's not interested in the fact of the earth going around the sun, for example.  He doesn't concern himself with "trivia".  There are things and people he claims to find dull.  There are cases he won't take.  He notices everything, but that doesn't mean it's all fascinating, I'd say.  Actually I'd say there are a lot of things that don't fascinate him; otherwise Irene wouldn't be special.

[gerry]

I donno, I think there are things he's disinterested in.

Yup or he wouldn't get bored enough to shoot the wall or he'd take any case brought to him but he rejects the ones he finds not worth his time or sends John to do the legwork.

[J.P.]

IMO both Sherlock and Mycroft, even if they would be fascinated by something, they would rather die than admit it. :P

[Van Buren Supernova]

Haven't you ever had that relationship with someone that you just spar with all the time, and it winds up making the physical attraction a huge inferno that just consumes you both, spurred on by the fact that neither of you will give the other an inch? (No? Just me? OK....... )

Pssst... nope, not just you.

That is actually how I always end up attracted to someone. Started with mind and wit sparring and monstrous I want to throw you out of window and those. Didn't realize until a friend pointed that to me. The chosen one, one time I actually waited behind the wall with empty gallon bottle to clonk his head because he was annoying. Not that I was going to hit hard though, ehmm.. just enough to show my irritation but someone found out and snitched on me. :p

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"He spends majority of his time manipulating people", you really think that?

Literally no. It was hyperbolic. What I meant was that he does it whenever convenient without any regard to the effect on the other person, not that he does every day but that it's part of his modus operandi. I also don't believe it's as harmless to others as you think. I don't have a problem with lying to suspects like real life cops do but manipulating Molly or that head mistress in TRF to point she would have to breathe in a bag strike me as unnecessary moments that lack compassion and are not just harmless moments justified by Sherlock working a case. Depending on how often Sherlock manipulated Molly like that, what if Molly used those small moments to delude herself into thinking Sherlock had feelings for her when in reality he was just using her to get into the morgue or to do something else he wanted?

Maybe I'm reading too much into Molly knowing it and let it, and there are probably more of those that happened off screen, but from what were shown, I'd say Molly never has that delusion.

Imho, Sherlock's strongest charm is that: he is not interested. And Molly knows.

 

I do agree if it's prolonged manipulation then it's not okay. But not from what I saw in the series, and he always had purpose, which differentiates him with those actual jerks who manipulate for personal gains and to get into someone's pants.

 

The headmistress, well, I saw many expert liars before, and they could be extremely good at it. Usually they prey on your possible weak point and work on that, children and family being number one. So yah, I don't disagree with Sherlock's method at all. There are someone else for her, Sherlock is doing different job.

I gasped at first on the scene, then laugh out loud. (I am going to hell, am I?)

 

IMO both Sherlock and Mycroft, even if they would be fascinated by something, they would rather die than admit it. :P

Especially everything in defect category.

[Arcadia]

The headmistress, well, I saw many expert liars before, and they could be extremely good at it. Usually they prey on your possible weak point and work on that, children and family being number one. So yah, I don't disagree with Sherlock's method at all. There are someone else for her, Sherlock is doing different job.

I gasped at first on the scene, then laugh out loud. (I am going to hell, am I?)

Then I'll meet you there.

 

 

IMO both Sherlock and Mycroft, even if they would be fascinated by something, they would rather die than admit it. :P

Especially everything in defect category.

 

Well, Sherlock said he was fascinated by Toby the dog's failure to move. :D

[Boton]

 

The headmistress, well, I saw many expert liars before, and they could be extremely good at it. Usually they prey on your possible weak point and work on that, children and family being number one. So yah, I don't disagree with Sherlock's method at all. There are someone else for her, Sherlock is doing different job.

I gasped at first on the scene, then laugh out loud. (I am going to hell, am I?)

Then I'll meet you there.

 

 

 

We're going to need a bus.

 

I thought that was a perfect way to handle the headmistress.  She was freaking out and going into hysterics, and that was helping no one, especially not the missing kids.  Sherlock needed information, right now, and he knew the way to get her to stop sobbing and wringing her hands and start speaking and being helpful.  I think that was rather well handled.

[Pseudonym]

And he was actually quite nice when he explained why he'd done it - soft tone of voice, and doesn't he touch her shoulders?

[gerry]

I thought that was a perfect way to handle the headmistress. She was freaking out and going into hysterics, and that was helping no one, especially not the missing kids. Sherlock needed information, right now, and he knew the way to get her to stop sobbing and wringing her hands and start speaking and being helpful. I think that was rather well handled.

In real life and plenty of other tv shows I've seen police officers handle upset witnesses without yelling at them while still getting the information they need. Also, the headmistress wasn't hysterical. She was actually pretty calm by the police car when Sherlock walked up to her. She was obviously worried but she certainly wasn't crying, yelling or screaming or anything. The way he talked to her was very insensitive and unnecessary. I'm actually suprised anyone found humor in the scene.

[Arcadia]

We're Sherlockians, we find humor wherever it's hiding.  B) 

[Boton]

I think the beauty of Sherlock is that he can be rude in places that the rest of us (OK, maybe just me?) want to be rude, but our social filters won't let us.  I feel the same way about his initial interaction with Henry Knight, where John is going into full GP mode with his "in your own time" but Sherlock counters with "but quite quickly."  I was laughing, because that was another case where I just wanted Henry to cut to the chase and spit out why he was there already.  

 

 

[gerry]

In the Henry scene Sherlock wasn't literally yelling at him and the circumstances were quite different. Those scenes aren't comparable to me. Maybe the headmistress scene was supposed to be akin to the "but quite quickly" line but it wasn't in execution.

[Boton]

I see what you mean and how you could interpret the scenes differently.  It's a valid perspective.  

 

I suppose I just was frustrated by the headmistress from the first moment she walked onto the screen, and I wanted Sherlock to say absolutely anything he had to to just get the information and get her to shut up.  So I was pretty satisfied with his behavior, especially since I don't get to do that myself in real life.  Plus, the scene ends with him dropping the facade and admitting he scared her to get her to give up the goods as efficiently as possible, and I love any moment that Sherlock drops his disguise.  

[gerry]

What was it about the headmistress that frustrated you? I don't recall her saying anything until Sherlock walked up to her? Maybe I'm misremembering the scene.

 

ETA: I started to doubt myself. This the transcript of the exchange.

 

ST ALDATE’S SCHOOL. Greg’s car drives into the grounds of the boarding school and pulls up outside the front entrance. Two police cars are already there and a woman is standing in front of one of them, leaning against the bonnet wearing a shock blanket around her shoulders and crying while a uniformed female police officer talks reassuringly to her. A man, probably a plain clothed police officer, is also talking to her but walks away as Greg, Sally and the boys get out of the car and approach. The woman blows her nose on her handkerchief.

FEMALE POLICE OFFICER (comfortingly): It’s all right.

LESTRADE (quietly to Sherlock): Miss Mackenzie, House Mistress. Go easy.

(He stays back and lets Sherlock walk over to the woman on his own.)

SHERLOCK: Miss Mackenzie, you’re in charge of pupil welfare, yet you left this place wide open last night. (His voice rises angrily.) What are you: an idiot, a drunk or a criminal?

(He grabs the blanket and abruptly pulls it from around her shoulders. She gasps in fear as he glares furiously at her.)

SHERLOCK (loudly): Now quickly, tell me!

MISS MACKENZIE (tearfully and cringing in terror): All the doors and windows were properly bolted. No-one – not even me – went into their room last night. You have to believe me!

(Sherlock’s demeanour instantly changes and he smiles reassuringly and gently takes hold of her shoulders.)

SHERLOCK: I do. I just wanted you to speak quickly.

(He looks at the nearby police officers as he turns and walks away.)

SHERLOCK: Miss Mackenzie will need to breathe into a bag now.

(She sobs in distress and the female police officer hurries over to comfort her.

Shortly afterwards, inside the school, Sherlock leads the others into one of the dormitories.)

 

http://arianedevere.livejournal.com/30955.html#cutid1

[Artemis]

I think the beauty of Sherlock is that he can be rude in places that the rest of us (OK, maybe just me?) want to be rude, but our social filters won't let us.

 

Definitely not just you.  ^_^

 

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

I thought that was a perfect way to handle the headmistress. She was freaking out and going into hysterics, and that was helping no one, especially not the missing kids. Sherlock needed information, right now, and he knew the way to get her to stop sobbing and wringing her hands and start speaking and being helpful. I think that was rather well handled.

In real life and plenty of other tv shows I've seen police officers handle upset witnesses without yelling at them while still getting the information they need. Also, the headmistress wasn't hysterical. She was actually pretty calm by the police car when Sherlock walked up to her. She was obviously worried but she certainly wasn't crying, yelling or screaming or anything. The way he talked to her was very insensitive and unnecessary

 

I wanted Sherlock to say absolutely anything he had to to just get the information and get her to shut up.  [....]  Plus, the scene ends with him dropping the facade and admitting he scared her to get her to give up the goods as efficiently as possible....

 

My immediate reaction was to criticize Sherlock for being so rude to that poor woman.  But I decided to analyze the scene further, and came to the conclusion that A} he had merely startled her into rattling off something, presumably what she'd already told the police, and B} the time he saved was presumably offset by the time it took him to explain his actions.  So he was not only incredibly rude, he gained nothing by it.

 

Upon further reflection, however, I realized that by confronting her with an accusation of dereliction of duty, he might have startled her into defending her failure (e.g., "Well, if you think it's easy to keep all those doors and windows closed in a house full of children....!").  If there actually had been an unlocked door or open window during the night, he would have wanted to take a different tack in the rest of his investigation, so he had to know upfront.

 

So I think his approach was justified, but his explanation was bogus.  Possibly he didn't want anyone else to realize what he'd been after, at least not just yet.  Dunno why.  Maybe just because.

 

I think I'm basically agreeing with what VBS said:

 

The headmistress, well, I saw many expert liars before, and they could be extremely good at it. Usually they prey on your possible weak point and work on that, children and family being number one. So yah, I don't disagree with Sherlock's method at all. There are someone else for her, Sherlock is doing different job.

I gasped at first on the scene, then laugh out loud.

... except that I took longer to say it (and still don't find the scene particularly funny).

[Van Buren Supernova]

I think the beauty of Sherlock is that he can be rude in places that the rest of us (OK, maybe just me?) want to be rude, but our social filters won't let us.

One of the things I learn, everytime you feel alone, thinking or doing something that seems outrageous and unusual or possibly frowned by society, you are not alone here.

 

Collective nutters that probably earn a lot of head shake out there are here. Or collective quietly bland as people may see us, while actually our minds are just full of things they would disagree with so we don't bother.