Episode 2.3, "The Reichenbach Fall"

[jesskayding]

Well sort of.. All believed the lie except for his friends, relatives & some of his homeless network... 25 @ most.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

And all of those clients like Henry Knight who remain loyal because they had seen him at work. And what did it matter about all those who chose to believe he was a fraud. He knew the truth, John knew the truth, Lestrade, Molly, they all knew he wasn't a fraud so the rest of the world could go jump. The disbelievers don't count because they chose to believe the lie.

[jesskayding]

I'm not debating about who believed the lie. I was just attempting to answer the question that both sfmpco & Carol had. The final problem that Moriarty is referring to, is this man who's his equal being on the side of the angels. Moriarty solved that problem, so he thought... It was recalculated however by Sherlock within 2 years, so that Sherlock is no longer a fraud to the public.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I'm not debating it either. Pretty cut and dried. Really. I'm just saying, it didn't matter. Sooner or later the public would know the truth what ever the newspapers said. Moriarty couldn't go on forever. Especially if he had a death wish. And when Moriarty died, Richard Brook would simply disappear too then the cat would be out of the bag anyway.

 

 In fact, come to think of it, the only thing that seemed to matter to Sherlock is if John believed the lie. Sherlock visibly relaxes when John iterates that he could never believe that Sherlock was a fraud. So, if that was the one person that Moriarty failed to convince then he had failed at the very onset of that gambit. If Moriarty was trying to burn Sherlock by making Dr. John H. Watson doubt him....then the plan had no chance what so ever of succeeding.

[Carol the Dabbler]

No argument there, Fox.  We're just curious as to what Moriarty was referring to as "our final problem."

 

Two clues are that he did say "our final problem," rather than "my final problem," and that he claimed that he'd already told Sherlock what it was.  Since he and Sherlock were apparently meeting for only the third time at that point, and we had apparently seen the entirety of all three meetings, then he must have been referring to something that we had already heard him say.  Admittedly, he indicates on the rooftop that the problem was "Stayin' Alive" -- but I don't offhand recall him ever alluding to that idea before.

 

So had he actually told Sherlock what he saw as "their problem"?  Or was he merely yanking his chain when he said that he had?

 

[Caya]

Well Sherlock heard Moriarty's mobile go off at the pool in Scandal. So if it is Stayin' Alive, in a way, he had.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Didn't Moriarty say that Sherlock was just like him....only now he was boring. Maybe "our final problem' alluded to the fact that Moriarty thought that Sherlock was tired of living just like Moriarty said he was?  Maybe it goes back to the cabbie in "ASiP"

 

  You're not bored now, are ya.

 

  Perhaps this is how the cabbie knows Sherlock's need to know

 

  What kind of results are you after

 

  Moriarty had been couching Jeff Hope. But it all would result in the same thing....Sherlock being dead. Moriarty alive....for at least a little while longer.

[jesskayding]

I don't think Moriarty is that delusional to think that people closest to Sherlock would believe the lie. He simply wanted to kill his heroic/angelic international reputation. Burn him to a crisp with no hope of revival. Per Moriarty's connections, the public may have never discovered the truth, without his network being dismantled by Sherlock.

 

Moriarty's identity was clearly changed successfully until his identity was changed back from Richard Brook to Moriarty, due to Sherlock's involvement. ( I'm sure Mycroft helped some ).

 

Remember that everything being clever was Sherlock's weakness. Moriarty's weakness was being so changeable, the reason he blew his head off, so that Sherlock wouldn't be able to get him to change his plan. So anyway, to Moriarty didn't have to be clever enough to fool everybody. Just needed to be practical enough to full authorities, news readers/watchers, ect...

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

True enough. But wouldn't it only matter if Sherlock cared about his reputation being ruined? But in the end Moriarty wasn't even as clever as that.

[jesskayding]

Sherlock did care. They've shown that throughout the series.

 

John's blog: don't talk about the unsolved ones....yada yada yada... They do?

 

Turning his collar up to appear cool

 

"I have an international reputation"

 

Time to go be Sherlock Holmes, he grabs the hat, his reputation fully restored @ this point.

 

He faked his death & caused his best friend excruciating pain for 2 years to restore his reputation & dismantle Moriarty network.

 

Shall I continue. I wish I was as clever as Sherlock, but I'm nowhere near the end of the list.." I'm surprised you didn't notice, all you have to do is look around this flat" (I'm referring to 221b of course)

 

He says he doesn't care, but it's been quite obvious that he's very caring, especially starting in SIB... His heart is quite exposed & obvious. It's Mycroft who truly doesn't care. He cares only for Sherlock & tolerates his parents. Let's not confuse the two characters. They are a lot alike, so it makes since we would give each brother personality traits from the other without even recognizing that we're even doing that.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Of course he cares about people. I have always stood by that premise. For all the times he tried to deny it, as you said it was evident from the get go. But does he care about what people think of. him,that is the real question. And yes, to a certain extent he does. We see it in the Blind Banker when he calls John friend and John corrects him. We see it again when Sebastian says how many of. Sherlock's Uno class mates hated him. But he is also able to rise above that. He can bully a nanny. Pickpocket a Scotland Yard DI when he gets annoying. He can woo a woman just to be able to get to her boss's innersanctum. Yes he did say it was time to go and be Sherlock Holmes John commented on how much Sherlock enjoyed being that and Sherlock came back with I don't even know what that means.

 

He is who he is. And that is what matters to him the most. Not what other people think.

[jesskayding]

Your very response shows that he cares what others think. Look @ everything you posted above & just think why he would respond the way that he does. He cares very much about his reputation.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

But he cares more for people then his reputation. He was more then willing to let that be destroyed if it meant beating Moriarty. But to save the lives of those he loved he was willing to risk his very life. People matter most.

 

I mean really, he has a reputation for being a drug addict. For carrying a skull around and talking to it in public. He refuses to get dressed, literally, to go to Buckingham Palace. So it gets a little pruning.

[Arcadia]

I would say that he cares for his reputation insofar as wanting people to acknowledge he's the smartest one in the room. He doesn't care what they think about his "transport" -- or at least that's what he tells himself. It's obvious that he can get his feelings hurt, but that's not quite the same thing as caring about your reputation, is it?

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

But he is dealing with ordinary people. And rare is the person who looks beyond the mere transport. We are brought up with such conventions as" First impressions are the most important." And" clothing makes the man". Both equally ridiculous, if you think about it, but they are society's yardstick in how we perceive people. Remember Mycroft's words to John that first night after John moved into Baker Street" You''ve met Sherlock, how many friends do you expect he has?".

 

Yes,he does want people to think he is the "smartest person in the room". All his life he has been treated as" the idiot child". Been called a freak. Told to" piss off" when he got to showing off. Even John gets annoyed" when Sherlock shows off and calls him names like" idiot and" dick head". But John also accepts Sherlock for the brilliant person he is. One the very few people who does. In" TRF" Sherlock only seems upset when he thinks that John is going to fall for Moriarty's smeer campaign. But when John is able to convince Sherlock that he will never believe him to be a fraud and a fake, Sherlock visibly relaxes. Sherlock isn't concerned about what the world at large thinks of him but John's opinion matters very much.

[jesskayding]

The whole point was the question to the final problem was to make Sherlock a fallen angel. As simple as that. Doesn't matter the process, doesn't matter if Sherlock cared about his reputation or not. He did become a fallen angel like Moriarty wanted for a short while.

[sfmpco]

Of course he cares about people. I have always stood by that premise. For all the times he tried to deny it, as you said it was evident from the get go. But does he care about what people think of. him,that is the real question. And yes, to a certain extent he does. We see it in the Blind Banker when he calls John friend and John corrects him. We see it again when Sebastian says how many of. Sherlock's Uno class mates hated him. But he is also able to rise above that. He can bully a nanny. Pickpocket a Scotland Yard DI when he gets annoying. He can woo a woman just to be able to get to her boss's innersanctum. Yes he did say it was time to go and be Sherlock Holmes John commented on how much Sherlock enjoyed being that and Sherlock came back with I don't even know what that means.

 

He is who he is. And that is what matters to him the most. Not what other people think.

 

He does very much care about what people think of him, however, because there is a narcissist in-bedded in his personality.  Heaven forbid he should be seen on the website in "that hat."  When John tells him that the website readers are interested he wants to know "what people?"  When John tells him that no one is ready SH's website on 240 different types of tobacco ash, SH actually get miffed and walks out.  But he's very impudent and childish when he refuses to wear clothes to BP.  So he doesn't seem to care that he's out in public in a sheet - just not "that hat." And his taste in clothes is generally quite designer and top notch - even if his shirts are a size or two too small and bursting at the buttons (seriously, could they please get him some properly fitting shirts???)

 

Yes, he loves being Sherlock Holmes but can't deduce himself!  Well, he does a bit in his best man speech.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

It seems we are not quite meshing on perspective on what reputation means and that may be entirely my problem. But to me, someone who truly cares about their reputation and what people think of them, try to conform to society's norms. They never step outside the lines. Would never think of breaking the rules and Sherlock does that constantly. Always pushing the envelope. Even thumbing his nose at convention. To me this is not the behavior of someone who cares a great deal about what the general population thinks. He even goes so far to think of himself above the Commonwealth.

 

Yes he feels snubbed when people don't recognize his brilliance. This is the one thing he knows to be true about himself. The thing he values the most and so it's little wonder that his nose gets out of joint when people "don't get it". But as he told John in" A Study in Pink" people are idiots.

 

In my experience, a person's reputation rises and falls constantly. It is sometimes not even based on a person's true actions but are often formed opinions made by other people and may include misconceptions, and in many cases, out and out lies. I would think that Sherlock, or at least I would hope, would be more than well aware of those variables and truly not care to much.

[T.o.b.y]

 And his taste in clothes is generally quite designer and top notch - even if his shirts are a size or two too small and bursting at the buttons (seriously, could they please get him some properly fitting shirts???)

 

No, no, no, I like the shirts! With the fabric straining across the chest and the buttons gaping, it looks as if Sherlock is quite literally about to burst with pride and I think that is hilarious.

 

If Sherlock is anything like the original Mr Holmes, he cares hugely about people appreciating his brilliance. Dr Watson remarks somewhere in the story that Holmes was more vain about his art than any beauty could have been about her looks. He doesn't care whether people think if what he does is proper or not, and he doesn't need to be liked, but he desperately needs to be admired. Spreading the rumor that his genius is a fake is about the worst thing you could do to him - trust Moriarty to figure that out.

 

[jesskayding]

 

 

And his taste in clothes is generally quite designer and top notch - even if his shirts are a size or two too small and bursting at the buttons (seriously, could they please get him some properly fitting shirts???)

No, no, no, I like the shirts! With the fabric straining across the chest and the buttons gaping, it looks as if Sherlock is quite literally about to burst with pride and I think that is hilarious.

 

If Sherlock is anything like the original Mr Holmes, he cares hugely about people appreciating his brilliance. Dr Watson remarks somewhere in the story that Holmes was more vain about his art than any beauty could have been about her looks. He doesn't care whether people think if what he does is proper or not, and he doesn't need to be liked, but he desperately needs to be admired. Spreading the rumor that his genius is a fake is about the worst thing you could do to him - trust Moriarty to figure that out.

 

I agree Toby. His shirts fit perfectly. Now there was that scene in TEH, when Mycroft was getting his brother dressed & they put on his suit Jacket. I think he was still buff from having to gain 30 pounds for his role as khan. Look like he was going to split that Jacket in two. He could hardly put his arms down.

[T.o.b.y]

Oh. Honestly I think that was for dramatic effect. With Mycroft on his side, could of left at anytime after his death.

 

Well, don't forget he told John (in TEH) that he heard what John said at the graveside. So if his appearance at the end of TRF was just a dramatic effect, Sherlock must have lied to John in TEH. Not that he hasn't done that before, rather frequently.

 

You don't honestly think Sherlock would miss his own funeral? I bet he was there for the whole thing, hiding in plain sight!

[Arcadia]

Probably as one of the gravediggers.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

That sounds like something that would tickle his wacky sense of humor.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I still wonder why he wasn't dressed as a groundskeeper in that final scene.  With a short haircut and a few days of stubble on his face.

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

It had been awhile by the looks of the grass that had already grown on the grave. It kind of reminds me of the scene in Jeremy Brett's version of "The Final Problem". He has escaped Moran's attempts to kill him after Moriarty goes into the Falls. He finds an over hanging rock to rest under when he sees Watson return and he almost calls out to him. Then he can only wistfully look on.