Molly Hooper

[Arcadia]

That's been a point of debate somewhere around here, some people were quite upset about it. My favorite answer had to do with Molly and Anderson, being forensic experts, would have more knowledge about how people die from gunshot wounds than a doctor would. That almost makes sense to me. (My personal theory is that they wanted to give Loo Brealey more screen time...)

[Carol the Dabbler]

Plus, I've never gotten the feeling that Sherlock thinks of John as a doctor.  Sure, he knows that he's a doctor, but I think he thinks of him more as a soldier.  Or maybe as simply John.  But he deals with Molly primarily at her workplace, so he thinks of her more in those terms.

 

[Tunguska]

My guess would be that Sherlock's subconcious realized he needed to fócus and bringing in John would open up a whole whirlpool of emotions, from concern for his safety, to regret, to love, and everything in between. He needed to think of John tk save his life, but not at this very moment; here, he needed to give himself rational advice about what to do, without distractions, from someone he trusts and works with (semi ) professionally.

[T.o.b.y]

Plus, I've never gotten the feeling that Sherlock thinks of John as a doctor.  Sure, he knows that he's a doctor, but I think he thinks of him more as a soldier.  Or maybe as simply John.  But he deals with Molly primarily at her workplace, so he thinks of her more in those terms.

 

Yes, that is my impression as well. And canon Holmes didn't have too high an opinion of Dr Watson's medical abilities, either. On the few occasions where the detective did need a doctor, he did not go to his friend. There are always other "famous" physicians mentioned, and in one story Holmes says outright: "facts are facts, Watson, and, after all, you are only a general practitioner with very limited experience and mediocre qualifications". (This is from "The Dying Detective", and to be fair, Holmes is only looking for an excuse to refuse his friend's assistance because he's faking his illness and does not want to be found out, but it is still my impression that he was more or less speaking the truth anyway.)

 

If we didn't know already from The Empty House that John does have a voice inside the mind palace, I wouldn't have thought he showed up there much at all. And because he and Sherlock are two alpha males shoving and pushing each other a lot in real life (although I do think John basically accepts that Sherlock is a bit higher on the totem pole than himself), I would be very surprised if Sherlock let him of all people hit him across the face and lecture him about energy transfer inside his mind. Molly is "allowed" to do these things because she's sweet and mild in general, and because she's a woman. Also, forensic pathology is her and Anderson's field, not John's, and what they are doing in that scene is analyzing Sherlock's murder.

 

So. I am all for the big (platonic) love story, but in this case, I think it's just fine the way it was written with Molly.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

Sherlock treats Molly more as a colleague where as John is more of a friend even though both of them fall in to both categories.

[Carol the Dabbler]

... he and Sherlock are two alpha males shoving and pushing each other a lot in real life (although I do think John basically accepts that Sherlock is a bit higher on the totem pole than himself)....

I've read that opinion somewhere before (perhaps from you?), and it startled me at first, but the more I think about it, the more I agree. Just because John is a less flamboyant alpha male, one must never assume that he's a pushover. Each of them is the alpha in their own areas, though those areas have shifted a bit in Series 3.

 

This is another point where I'm not sure that Moftiss are fully aware of how the characters are behaving. They have explicitly referred to Sherlock as an alpha male, and not John -- but on the other hand they are careful to make the point that the roles are co-leads.  It would be interesting to hear their take on this.

 

[Bendydoodle Cantaloupe]

So you're saying that it wasn't all that unrealistic for Sherlock to a] give himself the best chance to survive being shot (by imagining what Molly might recommend -- see, we're still on topic), and b] fight his way back through sheer determination?

 

Not just sheer determination -- have you noticed how as soon as the mind palace Moriarty mentions John, Sherlock gets back up, albeit painfully so.

[sfmpco]

 

So you're saying that it wasn't all that unrealistic for Sherlock to a] give himself the best chance to survive being shot (by imagining what Molly might recommend -- see, we're still on topic), and b] fight his way back through sheer determination?

 

Not just sheer determination -- have you noticed how as soon as the mind palace Moriarty mentions John, Sherlock gets back up, albeit painfully so.

 

 

I've got this great image (unable to post, of course!) that has a very striking comment about this scene.

 

"Just die, why can't you?"

 

The most terrible thing about this is that it is not James Moriarty telling Sherlock to die.  It's Sherlock telling himself that he would be better off dead, and he is using Moriarty's words way back from Bart's rooftop as encouragement.

 

There is a lot of truth in that comment.  Notice that Sherlock does call John's name right as he is leaving the padded cell, and once when ascending the stairs.  The thought that John was in danger via Mary pulled him from those depths of despair.  Remember that (as far as we know), Moriarty did NOT know about Mary as she came on the scene after the fall.  That's why his words spoken about her - even that she was the wife of John - are really all Sherlock's subconscious.

 

And to keep this on topic, Molly does help him to survive by focusing on what he needs to do in his 3 seconds before he loses consciousness.  She tells him to get control when he's in terrible pain, but his own "demons" of doubt and a bit of self-loathing in the form of Moriarty begin to fell him in the padded room.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Carol the Dabbler
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[Bendydoodle Cantaloupe]

Which makes me think -- is Sherlock's whole arrogant-and-egotistical thing just an act to cover up agonisingly low self-esteem?

[sfmpco]

Which makes me think -- is Sherlock's whole arrogant-and-egotistical thing just an act to cover up agonisingly low self-esteem?

 

Yes, I suspect he does actually have a low self-esteem.  Not about his intellect (except with Mycroft) but perhaps with pretty much all the other areas of his life.  Arrogance is a mask.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Maybe not low self-esteem as such -- but self doubt almost certainly -- thanks to his big brother.

 

[Bendydoodle Cantaloupe]

I've just realized that in ASiP, John is probably the first person ever to think Sherlock's deduction skills are fantastic, not freakish.

[Boton]

I like all the in-universe reasons suggested for why it's Molly who guides Sherlock through the Mind Palace rather than John.  It's also possible that, since Sherlock is flirting with death, almost everyone he encounters deals with death in some way (Molly, pathologist; Anderson, forensics; Moriarty, dead, I guess; Redbeard, also dead).  Mycroft seems to be the outlier here.  Maybe Mycroft is indistinguishable from a corpse to Sherlock?  

 

I think, really though, John couldn't be guiding Sherlock because they have been working as partners, while the other people serve advisory roles of some sort or other.  Sherlock needs to be in a position to come back from asystole to save John, which wouldn't read as dramatic if John had been saving him all along.

 

Of course, I have to credit the best possible explanation for this scene to the recapper over at Previously.tv: http://previously.tv/sherlock/season-squee-finale/

 

"At this, Sherlock climbs back to life.  And unflatlines himself in the ER.  Because he's SHERLOCK [expletive deleted but appropriate] HOLMES."

 

That's pretty much my default explanation for things I can't explain in the show:  because he's Sherlock Holmes, darn it.

 

 

[Bendydoodle Cantaloupe]

Maybe not low self-esteem as such -- but self doubt almost certainly -- thanks to his big brother.

 

It takes more than just self-doubt to have full-blown suicidal thoughts.

 

 

I like all the in-universe reasons suggested for why it's Molly who guides Sherlock through the Mind Palace rather than John.  It's also possible that, since Sherlock is flirting with death, almost everyone he encounters deals with death in some way (Molly, pathologist; Anderson, forensics; Moriarty, dead, I guess; Redbeard, also dead).  Mycroft seems to be the outlier here.  Maybe Mycroft is indistinguishable from a corpse to Sherlock?  

 

Or maybe Mycroft had something to do with Redbeard's death. "By the way, Sherlock -- do you remember Redbeard?" 

 

I think, really though, John couldn't be guiding Sherlock because they have been working as partners, while the other people serve advisory roles of some sort or other.  Sherlock needs to be in a position to come back from asystole to save John, which wouldn't read as dramatic if John had been saving him all along.

 

Of course, I have to credit the best possible explanation for this scene to the recapper over at Previously.tv: http://previously.tv/sherlock/season-squee-finale/

 

"At this, Sherlock climbs back to life.  And unflatlines himself in the ER.  Because he's SHERLOCK [expletive deleted but appropriate] HOLMES."

 

That's pretty much my default explanation for things I can't explain in the show:  because he's Sherlock Holmes, darn it.

 

Isn't that what we all think?

 

 

 

On a side note, this is my favourite part from that article you linked:

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

It takes more than just self-doubt to have full-blown suicidal thoughts.

I'm not following you. When have we seen Sherlock having full-blown suicidal thoughts?

[T.o.b.y]

That's pretty much my default explanation for things I can't explain in the show:  because he's Sherlock Holmes, darn it.

 

That's a pretty good explanation, if you ask me.

 

 

[Schlauer Fuchs]

 

That's pretty much my default explanation for things I can't explain in the show:  because he's Sherlock Holmes, darn it.

 

One great thing about this show is that this explanation is usually convincing and satisfying (at least for me). A few weeks ago I watched the second Downey Jr. Holmes film. It was entertaining but what I didn't like about it was that Holmes seemed to have some kind of super power. He could foresee whole fight sequences and tell in advance what his enemies would do at a certain point in the future. I found this unconvincing because if this was to work, you'd need to deny human beings any kind of spontaneous and creative behaviour or even free will. Our Sherlock, on the other hand, has unbelievable yet believable skills ( ) so that "because he's Sherlock Holmes" is usually good enough for me.

 

  -> sorry!

 

[Bendydoodle Cantaloupe]

 

It takes more than just self-doubt to have full-blown suicidal thoughts.

I'm not following you. When have we seen Sherlock having full-blown suicidal thoughts?

 

 

The thing is, Moriarty in the asylum scene is just a metaphorical construct for Sherlock's darker side -- all his negative thoughts and fears and anxieties whispering to him, trying to pull him under. Perhaps mind palace Moriarty's remark, "Just die, why can't you?" doesn't necessarily imply suicide. Maybe it's more of a give into the darkness sort of thing, you know?

[sittything]

The closest thing that I can think of that made me question Sherlock's will to live was the pill incident in ASIP.  While not exactly suicidal, it says a lot that he'd be willing to risk his life like that for a "game."   It makes me sad when I think of it, like how empty or lonely or boring was his life to that point that he'd even consider that?

[Bendydoodle Cantaloupe]

That's a symptom of depression in men -- they feel like they have nothing to lose, so might as well risk it all.

 

I feel that this is relevant:

 

 

37. Some men need brotherly love to fulfill their social needs. Some need sex for comfort and acceptance. A man beats and rapes a girl he’s been dating to know what domestic abuse is like. He’s tried terrible things just to experience them. Some men want to kill themselves, some women get raped, many people drive each other crazy.

 

[sfmpco]

And back to Molly...

[Arcadia]

The closest thing that I can think of that made me question Sherlock's will to live was the pill incident in ASIP.  While not exactly suicidal, it says a lot that he'd be willing to risk his life like that for a "game."   It makes me sad when I think of it, like how empty or lonely or boring was his life to that point that he'd even consider that?

I don't think of him as suicidal, exactly, but sometimes I think he does have a bit of a death wish.

 

And I blame it on Molly.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I think he'd rather risk dying than go on being bored.  But I don't think he'd just flat out kill himself.  Even when he was shipped off to certain death in Eastern Europe, I doubt that he thought of it that way.  He figured he might beat the odds.

 

[sfmpco]

But even if he had beaten the odds, would he have been allowed back into Britain?  I think his separation was meant to be permanent.

[Shadow Dweller]

But even if he had beaten the odds, would he have been allowed back into Britain?  I think his separation was meant to be permanent.

 

If situation changed such as those who wants him out of their way (permanently) are no longer have enough influence to ensure the verdict being followed then Sherlock might be allowed to go back and resume his life in Britain.