Episode 4.3 "The Final Problem"

[Surelock]

 

 

And, of course, one can argue (especially since they explicitly included it in Final) that she met him before the end of S1.3 and told Moriarty to use the pool, since it wasn't only from Sherlock's remembered past but would be an allusion to his forgotten past.

Wasn't Sherlock the one who defined the meeting place?

Re: TRF - why would she do this? Killing Sherlock would rob her of the hope for a playmate.

 

Wait: what it Jim was her way to play with Sherlock? There are allusions to playing all over the episode. Now, wasn't it 5 years ago when they met? Would make it 2011-1012. Could work.

 

 

TBH Moffatiss have done a bad job of maintaining the timeline.

 

When Magnussen scans Sherlock in His Last Vow, it clearly says that Sherlock has been reported deceased from 2011 - 2013. That was the period when Sherlock faked his death and was out of the country.

 

This means that the Christmas that Moriarty met Euros couldn't have been in 2011 or 2012 because Morairty should have been dead by then as there is no indication that the events of The Reichenbach Fall took place during Christmas.

 

However if we try to calculate the year in which The Final Problem's Moriarty flashback takes place in, it strangely works out to be 2011 which looks like a contradiction.

 

Here's my reasoning:

 

1. When Sherlock returns to London in 2013 in the Empty Hearse, it's near the end of the year as John gets thrown into a bonfire that's being lit for Guy Fawkes Day. Guy Fawkes Day is in November.

 

2. At the end of The Empty Hearse, Mary tells Sherlock that her and John's wedding is set for May so it's probably May of 2014. So the Sign of Three happens in 2014.

 

3. His Last Vow's climax is set on Christmas so it's probably Christmas of 2014.

 

4. It's obvious that the events of The Six Thatchers take place in 2015 since they take place over a significant period of time.

 

5. However in The Lying Detective it's Sherlock's birthday in the end and Sherlock's birthday is January 6. This means that when John and Sherlock hug in The Lying Detective it should be 6 January 2016. 

 

6. So The Final Problem should take place in 2016.

 

However if we apply the '5 years ago' statement we get 2011 Christmas as the Christmas that Moriarty visited Euros. however that doesn't make sense because The Reichenbach Fall clearly took place before 2011 Christmas so chronologically, Moriarty should have been dead by then.

 

This looks like a contradiction. The only explanation I can think of is maybe the characters are just rounding down?

 

The Lying Detective may have ended in early 2016. We can't be sure because there's no indication given of the amount of time that passes between Sherlock and John getting back together and Euros revealing herself to be John's therapist. We also know that a significant amount of time passed between those two events as John tells Euros about how Sherlock has recovered and is now clean shaven.

 

Anyway if The Lying Detective ended in early 2016 then The Final Problem should be set in early 2016 as it begins right from where The Lying Detective left off. Maybe when the characters say '5 years ago' they're counting from 2015. That would make the Christmas that Moriarty visited Euros the 2010 Christmas. That's consistent with the timeline.

 

But I don't know. There are a number of timeline errors from the show, John's Blog etc. You can read more about them here:

http://bakerstreet.wikia.com/wiki/Sherlock_Timeline

[BLS_Pro]

 

 

And, of course, one can argue (especially since they explicitly included it in Final) that she met him before the end of S1.3 and told Moriarty to use the pool, since it wasn't only from Sherlock's remembered past but would be an allusion to his forgotten past.

Wasn't Sherlock the one who defined the meeting place?

Re: TRF - why would she do this? Killing Sherlock would rob her of the hope for a playmate.

 

Wait: what it Jim was her way to play with Sherlock? There are allusions to playing all over the episode. Now, wasn't it 5 years ago when they met? Would make it 2011-1012. Could work.

 

It was Sherlock's "choice" to MEET there but Eurus is the one who told Moriarty to use it, ie the case related to water.  And the writers explicitly connect it to Eurus/Redbeard with both the flash to the pool and with the flash to the falls.

 

One can definitely argue that Eurus was playing with Sherlock indirectly through Moriarty.  But as Mycroft states, it was after Moriarty had already expressed an interest in Sherlock.  So Eurus wasn't behind them ultimately crossing paths.  She just saw the opportunity of the crossed paths to serve her purposes.

 

[Surelock]

I thought they met when Mycroft had Moriarty in custody? So unless they only pretended that this was their first meeting, it must've happened sometime in S2.

 

I doubt it was when Mycroft had Moriarty in custody.

 

In the flashback, Mycroft clearly tells Morairty that he's under suspicion but they don't have any evidence against him yet. So the flashback should have taken place before we saw Morairty being slapped by Mycroft in The Hound of Baskerville.

[Pamela]

Re post #326: Obviously, Gatiss and Moffatt are exactly as attentive to these types of details as ACD was.

 

Surelock, what is "TBH"?

[kornmuhme]

Woah, this episode was a ride on a rollercoster! So much emotion, so much vulnerability, so much angst, guilt, so much ... of everything!

 

Hey everybody, just wanted to drop a few lines for tonight and say that I really appreciated this episode despite some unsolved questions (eg why is Eurus capable of this strange kind of mind control???) and I'd like to get involved in this discussion!

 

I have watched the ep once so far and there is so much to think about! My ranking so far. 8/10

 

Good night :-).

[Caya]

Hi kornmuhme (interesting nick! ) and welcome to the forum!

 

Pamela, I think it's To Be Honest.

[Surelock]

Re post #326: Obviously, Gatiss and Moffatt are exactly as attentive to these types of details as ACD was.

 

Surelock, what is "TBH"?

 

TBH = To Be Honest

 

 

 

Yeah ACD didn't do the best job at making his timeline clear. This is a proposed chronologically consistent timeline done by a fan:

http://www.nekosmuse.com/withlovesh/?p=328

 

But I'm sure some fans can find holes in it.

[J.P.]

Surelock, you are a hero. :D

But sometimes a conradiction is just a fault. Like the one with opening day of CS hospital wing.

[J.P.]

A nice article about Steven's tribute to Sue

http://observer.com/2017/01/steven-moffat-reveals-ultimate-sherlock-boss/

[Arcadia]

Yeah ACD didn't do the best job at making his timeline clear. This is a proposed chronologically consistent timeline done by a fan:

http://www.nekosmuse.com/withlovesh/?p=328

 

But I'm sure some fans can find holes in it.

There's also a (fanmade) timeline for Sherlock. http://bakerstreet.wikia.com/wiki/Sherlock_timeline

[J.P.]

We will make sense of it, sooner or later. We can make sense of quite everything in this show.

 

'night!

[Surelock]

 

Yeah ACD didn't do the best job at making his timeline clear. This is a proposed chronologically consistent timeline done by a fan:

http://www.nekosmuse.com/withlovesh/?p=328

 

But I'm sure some fans can find holes in it.

There's also a (fanmade) timeline for Sherlock. http://bakerstreet.wikia.com/wiki/Sherlock_timeline

 

 

That's what I linked at the end of my earlier post (Post #326) when I said that there were timeline errors. 

 

But thanks for sharing it anyway. 

[Surelock]

We can make sense of quite everything in this show.

 

Reminds me of Sherlock Holmes' famous quote:

 

'Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.'

 

 

I think Moffatiss may have taken this quote a bit too far with Season 4, especially with this episode:

 

- Euros is smarter than Isaac Newton so she has mind control powers. 

- Euros has a great IT department that can set up TVs wherever she wants them to. Heck her IT department can even get footage of Molly.

- Euros even has a better remodeling unit that can create all these trap rooms for her.

- Sherlock can break into Mycroft's house and rig everything to play prank on him.

- Mary can somehow send DVDs well after her death.

- Molly has her emotions toyed with but she's smiling at the end so it's all okay.

Etc

[MycroftsUmbrella]

 

 

He was very young back then. Somehow him and Uncle Rudy, who should have good position in government, managed to cover up Eurus for decades. So both of them think Eurus is irreparable and it's right to take and lock her away. I find that difficult to digest, knowing what they knew. First, Redbeard disappeared. They didn't find the body, they didn't know what happened to him. 'Drown' was thrown around, so assuming that they searched the lake, why on earth they missed the well? Anyway, nothing is really conclusive but babbling creepy kid. Arson, of course it's horrible, but it could easily caused by lack of risk understanding. What exactly made Uncle Rudy and Mycroft thought it's okay to lock her forever based on that? Well, Eurus turns out to be murderous, if she weren't, being locked up for decades could probably turn anyone into murderous as well.

I don't think they locked her away because she was accused of killing Victor and burning down a house. There surely were more sighns saying danger. The problem was she couldn't be conrtolled by anyone because she was not only smart, but also could manipulate easily. I think you notice such things as a parent. (ever seen We Need To Talk About Kevin?)

 

I doubt Mycroft would have been involved from the start. He is only 8 years older than her after all and if she was 7 or so when the boy disappeared he would have been 15 or 16 and in no position to make decisions involving security clearance. It would make more sense that he took over from his uncle when he took up a position in the government and became more powerful which would have taken a few years, even for Mycroft. By then it would have been a lot clearer how dangerous she really is and Mycrofts ultra high security measures and decision to lie about her death would make more sense as well.

 

Also, they probably locked her away because everything that Mycroft described before were pretty much obvious traits of a dangerous sociopath and the disappearance of the boy was only the tip of the iceberg. Paired with that amount of intelligence I can understand that Mycroft would have been concerned and told his parents and uncle about it and would strongly approve of her being locked away.

[Missy316]

VERY interesting episode; I thought it was VERY GOOD! 

 

HOWEVER...

 

If this was the LAST "Sherlock" episode EVER, I will be VERY UPSET!     PLEASE, someone tell me if there's any hope for any more!!  Not that I could EVER get enough of "Sherlock", especially with Beautiful Benedict Cumberbatch in the title role!!    

[BLS_Pro]

PLEASE, someone tell me if there's any hope for any more!! 

 

Benedict Cumberbatch IS Sherlock Holmes in "Never Say Never Again"

 

;)

 

[Arcadia]

VERY interesting episode; I thought it was VERY GOOD! 

 

HOWEVER...

 

If this was the LAST "Sherlock" episode EVER, I will be VERY UPSET!     PLEASE, someone tell me if there's any hope for any more!!  Not that I could EVER get enough of "Sherlock", especially with Beautiful Benedict Cumberbatch in the title role!!  

Glad you enjoyed it!

 

Everything we have been hearing from the creators is that they really do not know if there will be any more or not. There has been no official announcement one way or the other.

[Surelock]

So when the Governor was explaining Euros in Sherrinford to John, Mycroft says that Euros has been able to mind control people ever since she was 5 years old.

 

If that's the case then why didn't she just mind control Sherlock into playing with her when they were kids?

 

i swear you have to invent so much information to make this episode sound coherent. 

 

 

But this also begs the question if Euros ever used her mind control powers prior to this episode. I mean was she using them when she had disguised herself as the lady on the bus? Maybe John wasn't really cheating on Mary but was brainwashed by Euros? Similarly did Euros use her mind control on Sherlock when she spent the night with him?

[Inge l-w]

Oh, Surelock, I admire and salute your optimism! They simply couldn't be bothered to join the dots! In an older interview Mr Gatiss told those who complained that the episodes were getting too convoluted and un-linear to go and read a children's book.

We have been given excellent tidbits along with sloppy, lazy copouts and heavy lifting from other pieces of creative writing and cinematography. In retrospect, it reminds me a bit of the Harry Potter Liquorice All Sorts: you can get toffee and mint chocolate but also snot and even vomit tasting ones

[Fantasy Lover]

They are called Berty Bott's every flavour bean, in case you were wondering.

[Loekie]

Why did he hit the coffin to pieces?

[Surelock]

Oh, Surelock, I admire and salute your optimism! They simply couldn't be bothered to join the dots! In an older interview Mr Gatiss told those who complained that the episodes were getting too convoluted and un-linear to go and read a children's book.

We have been given excellent tidbits along with sloppy, lazy copouts and heavy lifting from other pieces of creative writing and cinematography. In retrospect, it reminds me a bit of the Harry Potter Liquorice All Sorts: you can get toffee and mint chocolate but also snot and even vomit tasting ones

 

That interview was pretty condescending but it got me thinking of another way to interpret this episode.

 

I've been wondering if Euros may just be Moffatiss' attempt to project themselves into one of their own characters?

 

You see Moffatiss think they're so much smarter than all of us. That's why they write these challenging plots that only smart people can understand. All the people who criticise their writing must be dumb. Moffatiss are like Euros on the plane. They're above everyone on an intellectual level and they don't know how to land because everyone else is so stupid compared to them.

 

Similarly to how Euros played games on Sherlock, Moffatiss are using Sherlock's plot to play games on us. They want us to become as smart as Sherlock so we can 'solve' their mysterious writing and come rescue them from the plane. Then we'll be on their level and everyone will be smart. 

 

You see all us mean critics just misunderstand Moffatiss. They just want to be loved and understood like Euros. 

 

[sfmpco]

A sneaky bit...

 

https://twitter.com/Cumberchicken/status/821647907006939137

[jadpdr]

Well, we lowly goldfish cannot get over plot holes the size of the Moon's craters, as somebody above said! Sea of Tranquility certainly not, since everyone is in a tizzy about the whole series and particularly the last episode. However we do have both an Anderson and a Benedict on the Moon. There, as in the show, they are far apart.

How does one survive a jump from a first floor window without a graze, and how does one splinter a coffin, however makeshift, to smithereens without getting his hands horribly mauled? How can one deflect a child disappearance into a dog? The last one especially was pure drivel, since if it had been an actual child disappearance the Holmes estate would have been swarming with the local constabulary within a day, even quickly enough to save the poor unfortunate boy. Suspension of disbelief can only go so far in the face of 'oh, so clever writers'! Respectfully suggest Mr Gatiss goes to read some children's books, they have tight, interesting plots to intrigue and interest a budding imagination!

[J.P.]

VERY interesting episode; I thought it was VERY GOOD! 

 

HOWEVER...

 

If this was the LAST "Sherlock" episode EVER, I will be VERY UPSET!     PLEASE, someone tell me if there's any hope for any more!!  Not that I could EVER get enough of "Sherlock", especially with Beautiful Benedict Cumberbatch in the title role!!  

 

Keeping the ongoing fandom drama in mind, I would strongly suggest: forget S5. It's healthier than clinging to a 50:50 chance at best.

 

All series end, all hearts are broken, hoping is not an advantage.

 

If S5 indeed comes one day, you can cheer to a nice surprise. (But maybe wait with cheering, until you have seen it )