Mary Morstan

[Arcadia]

You're a moderator!  You're supposed to know these things!

 

I have bad days!

[Lady Vengeance]

Mary will die in S4 and she will die as a villain, I'm almost 100% certain. They will do it in such a way that we won't miss her at all, and neither will her current husband.

 

The way she behaved throughout His Last Vow was terrible. Even during the Christmas conversation with John- appalling. No remorse, no apologies, only selfish concerns over losing him. Yes, she may love him but what sort of love is that? Not the one I'd wish on any friend or even enemy.

 

Also, yes, she was supposed to only mean to incapacitate Sherlock, yet Sherlock DIED after she shot him. He came back to life (huge suspension of disbelief here, but it was touching anyway) because Jim "told him" that John was in danger, but he was dead.

 

 

[Caya]

Mary will die in S4 and she will die as a villain, I'm almost 100% certain. They will do it in such a way that we won't miss her at all, and neither will her current husband.

 

The way she behaved throughout His Last Vow was terrible. Even during the Christmas conversation with John- appalling. No remorse, no apologies, only selfish concerns over losing him. Yes, she may love him but what sort of love is that? Not the one I'd wish on any friend or even enemy.

 

Also, yes, she was supposed to only mean to incapacitate Sherlock, yet Sherlock DIED after she shot him. He came back to life (huge suspension of disbelief here, but it was touching anyway) because Jim "told him" that John was in danger, but he was dead.

 

 

I only wish I had your confidence in that outcome. Would happily begin watching again if that is what happens, but I seriously doubt it, what with Amanda Abbington confidently stating that Mary "is redeemed" and such.

[Lady Vengeance]

 

Mary will die in S4 and she will die as a villain, I'm almost 100% certain. They will do it in such a way that we won't miss her at all, and neither will her current husband.

 

The way she behaved throughout His Last Vow was terrible. Even during the Christmas conversation with John- appalling. No remorse, no apologies, only selfish concerns over losing him. Yes, she may love him but what sort of love is that? Not the one I'd wish on any friend or even enemy.

 

Also, yes, she was supposed to only mean to incapacitate Sherlock, yet Sherlock DIED after she shot him. He came back to life (huge suspension of disbelief here, but it was touching anyway) because Jim "told him" that John was in danger, but he was dead.

 

 

I only wish I had your confidence in that outcome. Would happily begin watching again if that is what happens, but I seriously doubt it, what with Amanda Abbington confidently stating that Mary "is redeemed" and such.

 

 

I loathe her so I can relate LOL. If Amanda has said that, it's likely that she's misleading us on purpose because, really??? Where's her redemption? We still know nothing about her, only that she did things John would never forgive her for (so she didn't just kill bad guys, I suppose); she hasn't apologised; that unlikely coincidence of her, a professional assassin, meeting John when he's only being a low-profile doctor... The universe is rarely so lazy, or is it?

 

I can't see her being redeemed. If consequences are coming, if chickens come to roost, as Moffatt and Gatiss have said, the HAS TO BE first in line. Karma owes her quite some punishment.

 

Let's believe! She will fall! :D

[BlackButterfly]

It's been a really long time since HLV @ the Mary w/e , and I still seem to feel uncharacteristically irrational and bewildered about it.I think an awful lot rests on Marys exit.

I dread they may attempt to sell a tragic teary redeeming storyline with more bad and unbelievable melodrama just for the sake of it .

After rewatching series 1@2 again last month with the BBC 3 and being blown away again by the quality intelligence and depth of Sherlock E01-E08 and remembering how much I love the show I am back to pretending HLV was some kind of abnormal trip that will be hurdled quickly and brilliantly in S04.

Pretty much lost faith in Moffat though.

 

Good news being June 01 - half way to ShSpesh...maybe that will give us hope.

[Arcadia]

I only wish I had your confidence in that outcome. Would happily begin watching again if that is what happens, but I seriously doubt it, what with Amanda Abbington confidently stating that Mary "is redeemed" and such.

She said Mary was "redeemed"? Did she happen to explain what the redeeming factor was?

 

I admit I can think of any number of ways Mary can be redeemed, although most of them end badly for her. Therefore, I will refrain from making any predictions. :P

 

[Shadow Dweller]

Mary's final exit better have clear impact on the storyline outside of reforming the Holmes-Watson duo. No prolonged angst and melodrama please, leave those stuff for fanfic only where fans who are not fans of weepy stuff can skip it. A little manly tears I can take but stretched out angsty self-torture will quickly make me yell, "Get over yourself!"

[Lady Vengeance]

It's been a really long time since HLV @ the Mary w/e , and I still seem to feel uncharacteristically irrational and bewildered about it.I think an awful lot rests on Marys exit.

I dread they may attempt to sell a tragic teary redeeming storyline with more bad and unbelievable melodrama just for the sake of it .

After rewatching series 1@2 again last month with the BBC 3 and being blown away again by the quality intelligence and depth of Sherlock E01-E08 and remembering how much I love the show I am back to pretending HLV was some kind of abnormal trip that will be hurdled quickly and brilliantly in S04.

Pretty much lost faith in Moffat though.

 

Good news being June 01 - half way to ShSpesh...maybe that will give us hope.

 

Yes, that dreary possibility is there, I'll give you that. But that episode was so weird, it seemed so ambiguous and obfuscated from the moment Mary shot Sherlock, that I highly doubt that they're setting it all up for her redemption. That's sort of what they sold us after that "client-like interrogation" at 221b, but they sold it to us in such a fashion that it's extremely hard to feel sympathy for her. No apology, no revealing of any past deed, we don't even know her name and, truly, I don't believe a man who has "trust issues" such as John Watson would elect not to know something as basic as that. The name. How he and Sherlock trusted each other with their full names, yet "Mary" is not even her real one.

 

I think John lied when he said those "prepared words" to her. Remember that they had been apart for several months and we have no idea what Sherlock and John discussed without her hearing them because we leap forward from the "interrogation" at 221b to John and Mary at Christmas several months later. How do we know Mycroft, Sherlock ("always your way") and he aren't on to something about her? Maybe plotting, maybe just trying to deal with the situation in a way that won't harm John's daughter.

 

Many of us thought HLV was hitting some false note. There was some weird dissonance regarding Mary's scenes: Mary shoots Sherlock, he survives because he fights back from death (not because she performed surgery; bad surgeon, HE DIED, then he became fully aware in his mind palace that she was evil and John was in danger and that's why he lived again), Sherlock stages it all so John can see with his own eyes what his wife truly is, and then all is forgiven and Sherlock is siding with her??? And John agrees that she deserves a second chance??? It doesn't make any sense to me. I don't think it was bad writing (mostly because all the other episodes are nothing short of brilliant, so the creators have tons of credit in my mind), I think they gave us a very unreliable POV and showed us a puzzle which will be sorted out throughout S4.

 

It would have been so easy to script a great season finale and an amazng cliffhanger, yet they did it this way. Even the tarmac scene was... uncharacteristic, somehow. There must be a reason and I'm intrigued to find out.

 

Also, sorry about my English and about any mistakes. It's not my 1st language.

[sfmpco]

How angsty John is over Mary's departure (in one way or another) will depend on how she exits.  Does she die in his arms while he's trying desperately to save her life?  We don't know, but telling someone to "get over it" if they've been through a particularly rough drama is hardly fair.  I am actually more interested in seeing how Sherlock grows up to be a real friend to John during that time.

[Shadow Dweller]

How angsty John is over Mary's departure (in one way or another) will depend on how she exits. Does she die in his arms while he's trying desperately to save her life? We don't know, but telling someone to "get over it" if they've been through a particularly rough drama is hardly fair. I am actually more interested in seeing how Sherlock grows up to be a real friend to John during that time.

Self-torture upon what already passed is not fair for everyone involved, it is downright stupid and will not change anything outside of spreading more misery. What is in the past stay there and only become lesson for the present and the future. Build a better future instead of wallowing in the past.

[Arcadia]

I think that is what John's little speech is about, yeh.

[Arcadia]

Also, sorry about my English and about any mistakes. It's not my 1st language.

No apologies needed, your English is excellent! And we're pretty easygoing about that around here anyway, so no worries.

[BlackButterfly]

Moffat described series three recently as....... " The third was good days, me and my pal and my pal’s wife. Those are golden days. The missing element in a lot of Sherlock Holmes adaptations is allowing it to be funny."

And described Mary as a sort of Callaghan well meaning w/e in the commentry...

 

Funny .? Sarcasm ? I just dont know .It's all loose ends like a ball of wool after the cats have been at it..but the writers seem to work the way that...HLV /S03 is done..onto the next w/e.

 

SO I really do think we're supposed to take the - thats all fine now -@ Sherlocks the great forgiver redeemer whatever now @ Marys just misunderstood......

 

@I think it's John that wasn't very mature or a very good friend to Sherlock In S03.

@I can't imagine a redemptive storyline or quality for a person that shoots innocent witnesses to their assassinations.

[sfmpco]

So a spouse dies and one is not allowed to grieve?  Everyone's grief takes a different form.  Glad you can move on so quickly.  Some can't.  Nevertheless I doubt they will spend too much time on it because the boys will be back in action.

[Shadow Dweller]

So a spouse dies and one is not allowed to grief? Everyone's grief takes a different form. Glad you can move on so quickly. Some can't. Nevertheless I doubt they will spend too much time on it because the boys will be back in action.

O_o I am not going to dignify this bait with an answer. And yes, I am blessed in the way I can cut off tie quickly and move on with life. Time is a finite resource and it is too precious to waste on something that will not have positive impact.

[Lady Vengeance]

John would of course grieve if Mary's death was her redemption somehow (however, since I don't believe John loves her that much anymore, it wouldn't be SO tragic for him) but I don't think that's where we're heading.

 

My speculation on this particular topic can get way out of hand so I'll leave it there lol.

[BlackButterfly]

Well if they follow the Hudders parallel , maybe an arrest and then John is kinda quietly relieved ; but that's likely way too tame and lacks drama queen melodrama and doesn't solve the baby problem.

 

@lol Lady V . I really like the John V Mary have a bit of a ding dong and shoot it out idea.

[Inge l-w]

Frankly, Dr Watson must have pretty mixed-up feelings about his wife shooting his best friend! The problem remains that if she exits on a dramatic scale, (death is also a form of redemption), then she will take the embryo with her, and THAT is a reason to grieve for both our beloved characters, if it was John's baby, because one would have lost his progeny and the other would have failed in his vow. Mr Moffat does love to act like the drama queen he pretends his Sherlock to be, and I flipping do not care HOW they get rid of the fake Mary, as long as she is a memory by the end of S4!

[T.o.b.y]

Well, we will never know this for sure, perhaps not even after series 4 has finally, finally aired. But: As is stands right now, I do believe Mary is not meant to be a villain and that she won't leave the stage soon.

 

My impression is that they meant for us to like her and for her story to be compelling. We're supposed to buy into the "surgery" idea, accept that she in fact did not kill Sherlock even though she had the chance, and we're supposed to forgive her along with the boys and move on with her as a cool female on the team for us feminists to identify with.

 

I think the problem is that Mary does not resonate with the audience the way the show-makers wanted. I love His Last Vow, but it is the first episode of Sherlock that doesn't "work" for me in everything. For example, I accept that Janine and Sherlock really to a degree clicked and that they'll probably continue to see each other after she's cooled down, but I neither like that idea nor do I find it believable. I also accept that John is supposed to come across as magnanimous and forgiving and that the scene where he and Mary get back together is meant to be touching, but I just don't feel it. My reasoning / my observation of what is on screen tells me "you are supposed to feel so-and-so / they are trying to tell you so-and-so", but my heart just says "nah..."

 

Introducing Mary was a challenge from the start. The third series hadn't even aired yet, and people were already complaining about her. At first I thought that in the light of that, they were playing it safe with her character - Mary in The Empty Hearse and The Sign of Three is likeable to an almost sickening degree. I personally felt kind of gleeful when they tore all that down in His Last Vow. At first I thought the "assassin" idea was stupid, because it's so, well, so action-movie cliché and over the top, but I've gotten used to it, and I definitely like Mary better in the final messed up version than if she really was Mrs Super Perfect Watson.

 

I do wonder why they chose this path, but I have to admire them for just writing their story the way they think is most exciting without apparently wasting much thought on how fans would react. In reality, that "surgery" idea would be complete BS, but in the Sherlock universe, I do think it's meant to be the truth. And I also believe that John really honestly took her back, I doubt his "prepared words" were insincere.

 

Of course I do the same as I accuse others of doing in their reasoning about her: I base my analysis on wishful thinking. I don't want Mary to be a villain and John to not love her, because for me, that would be boring and ruin the drama and tragedy of their story. I am much more interested in complex characters who are neither "good" nor "bad" than pure villains, so of course I'm hoping Mary is more conflicted than evil.

 

I would like her to be written out at some point. I can't say I particularly like her... But I don't think it's going to happen any time soon. Why should it? The Sherlock team seems to love her and she's one of the lead actors' wife (or partner? Are they married? Whatever). I just hope they don't ignore her background from now on. There is so much one could do with that. (I'm still keeping my fingers crossed for a modern version of "The Valley of Fear" with Mary as a female Birdie Edwards).

[Inge l-w]

Dear TOBY, so glad you are feeling strong enough to go on one of your deep analyses!

As far as I am concerned, dear "Mary" should disappear by the end of Episode 1 S4, or the dynamic will never hold together ever again. It's their show, if they want to turn it into crappy sitcom telly, fine by me, I do have other things to do in real life than give a BBC series more thought than it rightly deserves. Keep well!

[BlackButterfly]

@Toby and complex neither good nor bad characters..we already have them in John , Sherlock, Mycroft etc even Mrs Hudson has a dodgy past!

So why on earth did they need to go so hard core on Mary, for heavens sake an assassin and then shooting Sherlock for stumbling on the scene..that is not grey thats black. Remember the kind of work assassins do...wiring up and shooting blind old ladies...shooting randomers for shaking hands..and really shooting witnesses...what if a child or a student Intern or maybe a mother of 3 doing some cleaning for extra money had stumbled upon Magnussens murder?

They would be dead.

Had Mary been in keeping with the canon shooter...maybe a woman at her wits end for some other secret..and had just shot Magnussen and J@S covered it up...that would be all fine and dandy...why is all so incredibly extreme if it's not meant to be more than a bit not good, or just for dramatic - we need to show Sherlock miraculously resurrect - effect.

[Arcadia]

Moffat described series three recently as....... " The third was good days, me and my pal and my pal’s wife. Those are golden days. The missing element in a lot of Sherlock Holmes adaptations is allowing it to be funny."

And described Mary as a sort of Callaghan well meaning w/e in the commentary...

 

Sorry, Callaghan and w/e .... I don't understand. Definitions?

 

I have to go with Toby on this one; Moftiss is going to use their own judgement as to what's best for the show, as well they should; it's their show. If they get it wrong, so be it. But I seiously doubt if they'll respond to ultimatums from fans.

 

I find the "surgery" explanation as preposterous as anyone, but it's preposterous show! -- and I agree with Toby, I think we are meant to accept that explanation, whether it makes actual sense or no. To make it seem a little more reasonable, I just remind myself that death is not necessarily defined as "when your heart stops." There are other factors to consider, including whether there is still any brain activity or not, which there clearly still was in Sherlock's case. It's a thin thread to hang onto, maybe, but it fits the theory, so, heck, why not run with it.

[Inge l-w]

Dear Arcadia,

We do not have to issue any ultimatums, and with S3 they showed that they did not give a fig about fans' opinions. BUT, if the collective fandom turns its back on what their newest figment of the imagination is, they will have to sit up straight and re-think their priorities. Go on, stop, develop another show? Who knows, they have been making a pretty decent living off shows all their life, but to wreck their own project will carry heavy consequences, indeed, and not be funny at all!

[T.o.b.y]

Well, I'm not an expert here and I have to admit I did zero research on this topic, but my general impression is that series 3 actually made Sherlock more popular. It might be controversial for people who loved the show before, but there seem to be plenty of viewers who only came to it through watching series 3, and who like it just fine.

 

My prediction is they won't lose fan numbers, but their audience might change a bit. Some who were more into the "early days" will loose interest, while others will only really get into the series as it becomes more mainstream.

 

I'm really feeling most anxious about the special.

[J.P.]

I very much hope that the fandom will not turn its back to the authors for where they take their show, as long as they do it well. There are so many opinions and wishes among fans which are contradictory, that no matter what they do, someone would be disappointed.

That's why I think Mofftiss should go their own way. It might even be better when they stop reading opinions and reviews. ;)