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Posted

 

I still don't understand why this is so massive.

 

I think I do... at least I have some theories.

 

- It's a very compelling pairing. Don't laugh at me, please. Leave sex aside for a moment and just think of these two characters together. Amazing chemistry. Strong affection. A history of having been written for each other over 100 years ago ("for each other" in the sense of for the purpose of being together and completing each other, not in the sense of meant to get married, but still).

 

- Their relationship is the central one of the series. Nearly all the most meaningful emotional scenes occur within it. Even John and Mary's wedding was more about John and Sherlock than anything else.

 

- Even though it was from the beginning treated as a joke, the idea that the two main characters could be a couple was put forward by the show itself, in the very first episode. You can't kill an idea once it's made a home inside your mind. The audience has from the very beginning been forced to consider it in some way. Of course you can laugh along and shrug it off. You can be shocked at such a blasphemous twist on the original. Or you can succumb to the influence of points 1 and 2 and fall down a rabbit hole of romance.

 

- Representation. Same sex relationships are gaining favor in popular fiction, but so far, they have been fairly marginal. The main romance of a work not specifically catering to a gay audience is still bound to be a traditional boy / girl one. It would be huge to have an iconic character like Sherlock Holmes be gay, or at least in love with another man.

 

 

 

I agree with all of this.  I especially think that Mofftiss kind of didn't realize at first the monster they were creating.  I think they thought they were creating a small, niche show that would be watched primarily by people familiar with ACD or willing to become so.  So that makes the jokes about whether or not John is gay somewhat funny:  people have made those jokes about Watson ever since maybe 1940, when standards for masculine behavior started to re-code certain previously-masculine behavior as feminine.  (For example, Victorian male friends might walk arm in arm, but 50 years later that would be a female or romantic behavior and not one for two straight men.)  So, there have always been those snickers about Watson, and I think Mofftiss though that everyone would get that they were poking fun at the whole Holmesian universe, not writing a perfectly-serious tragic S/J romance.

 

 

But this specific insistence that there is a conspiracy and "Johnlock" WILL happen someday, and they can prove it .... that's a whole different level of obsession, to me. 

 

 

For me the biggest problem of all with Johnlock is that John just isn't gay, and Johnlock fanfiction is about a gay relationship.  So even IF Sherlock was gay, and I don't think he is, the romantic feelings would only be a one way street.  John would reject any advances which would put Sherlock's feelings in the unreciprocated category.  So if Sherlock was gay and knew that John wasn't, he would keep his feelings to himself.  There would still be hurt but he would never be specifically rejected. John has shown from the first episode that he is only interested in women.  He even tries to pick up Anthea.  Then in ASIB, Sherlock rattles off the list of John's girlfriends.  And of course, let's not forget the biggie:  JOHN GETS MARRIED TO MARY.

 

Much ado is made of the dance at the wedding, especially in memes.  I do not believe Sherlock looks at John as if he's lost the greatest love of his life but that a new chapter has begun and he's a bit unsure of how it's going to work out for him - because he does now recognize the true value that he places on his friendship with John.

 

 

That's the thing I can't wrap my mind around:  there is absolutely no modern reason for there to be a "conspiracy."  In the modern world, if John and Sherlock were the slightest bit interested in each other in "that way," they would have acted on it by now.  There is no tragedy; there are few societal norms left to keep them apart (and Sherlock wouldn't care); there is no reason why this would be hidden.  If they were a romantic/sexual couple, they would be just that.  

 

I could almost believe it if TJLC made their arguments based on the Brett series, because it is set in the Victorian era when there were barriers to male/male couples.  Then, operating completely on the level of code and subtext would make sense.  But not in a series set in the modern era.

 

And I agree with sfmpco:  John has proven beyond a shadow of a flippin' doubt, at least for me, that he is not gay.  Not that this is a code for "bisexual" or "Sherlock-sexual" or whatever the TJLC tried to argue, but that he actually is not gay.  Not interested in men, Sherlock Holmes or no Sherlock Holmes.

 

And, I think TAB went a long way toward proving that Sherlock is straight too.

 

I mean, I don't care if someone wants to make a Sherlock Holmes series where the boys are a romantic/sexual pairing.  I'd probably watch it and see if I liked it.  But this one isn't that show, and you can't argue your way with complicated subtextual proofs into making it so.

  • Like 2
Posted

 

if John and Sherlock were the slightest bit interested in each other in "that way," they would have acted on it by now.

Erm... not necessarily. They have enough problems to act on their friendship :P

Posted

Dear sfmpco, I should have thought that by now you would have finished the Barring-Gould annotated edition you got about six months ago: in TAB Sherlock repeats almost verbatim what his speech in SoT included, namely a paraphrase of his last comments in The Sign of the Four: "But love is an emotional thing, and whatever is emotional is opposed to that true cold reason which I place above all things. I should never marry myself, lest I bias my judgement," and "I really cannot congratulate you," which he addresses to Dr Watson.

Anyway, in Ao3 and fanfiction net, the reader is snowed under a veritable avalanche of TJLC stories, nearing St Valentine's Day, which, to me, will always signal the Chicago Mafia massacre, not romance.

Oh, and what about changing the masthead? Or are we celebrating Chinese New Year, as well, seeing as how many fans come from that country? ^_^

  • Like 1
Posted

 

 

if John and Sherlock were the slightest bit interested in each other in "that way," they would have acted on it by now.

Erm... not necessarily. They have enough problems to act on their friendship :P

 

 

OK, I'll grant you that.  Let me revise:

 

If there were the slightest chance, as fan fiction would suggest to us, that Sherlock and John were going to return from a case on an adrenaline high and throw one another up against the wall, ripping clothing and releasing a bunch of sexual tension, they would have done it by now.  :-)

  • Like 2
Posted

Another thing about John and Sherlock is that they are very independent of each other as most flatmates are.  In ASIB, John remarks about Sherlock's ability to keep talking when he's not even there, and in the same episode John leaves and Sherlock is just off in his own world and doesn't notice for a couple of hours.  Sherlock has an ability to disconnect that John doesn't have.  John's world, in a way, is bigger than Sherlock's because John brings people into his life - from a string of girlfriends to probably going to the local pub or just going out.  If Sherlock's not on a case, I don't think he leaves the flat much.  I'm still surprised that he helped someone put up some shelves! Must have been quite the shelf job to warrant extra portions every time he visits the shop.  

  • Like 3
Posted

 

 

if John and Sherlock were the slightest bit interested in each other in "that way," they would have acted on it by now.

Erm... not necessarily. They have enough problems to act on their friendship :P

 

OK, I'll grant you that.  Let me revise:

 

If there were the slightest chance, as fan fiction would suggest to us, that Sherlock and John were going to return from a case on an adrenaline high and throw one another up against the wall, ripping clothing and releasing a bunch of sexual tension, they would have done it by now.  :-)

 

Well, if I ever start to play devil's advocate it's mostly because I want to be sure your arguments are bulletproof. angel-1.gif

  • Like 2
Posted

TOBY, I moved on the edges of the LOTR fandom for a while. There was slash galore about all possible pairings

 

:lol: You know, even though I was far from innocent about slash long before I learned about this (didn't know it by that name, but when I was a young teen, I watched enough anime / read enough manga and poked my nose far enough into anime / manga fandoms to be familiar with the phenomenon), I was positively shocked when I found out. Sex and Lord of the Rings... that somehow doesn't go together. And hobbit slash? I know Sam married Rosie and had a lot of kids that can't have just fallen from the sky, but to me, hobbits are so childlike that it makes me very uncomfortable to think about them that way. Especially Frodo.

 

But this specific insistence that there is a conspiracy and "Johnlock" WILL happen someday, and they can prove it .... that's a whole different level of obsession, to me. The only thing I can compare it with from my personal history is the belief in various Kennedy assassination conspiracies. I've known a couple of people who are absolutely convinced they are true, and can "prove" it. That they happen to be "proving" two separate theories doesn't deter them one bit. Some of their "proofs" are even fairly convincing ... taken out of context. But all in all .... well, Occam's Razor again. I guess I'm just too logical.

 

Yeah, I don't quite get this "conspiracy" thing either. But do you really think most of the people who claim to believe in it are really serious? Seems more likely to me that for most, it's a kind of a game.

 

For me the biggest problem of all with Johnlock is that John just isn't gay, and Johnlock fanfiction is about a gay relationship. 

 

Well... Irene said it better than I ever could:

 

JOHN: We’re not a couple.

IRENE: Yes you are. There ...

IRENE: “I’m not dead. Let’s have dinner.”

JOHN Who ... who the hell knows about Sherlock Holmes, but – for the record – if anyone out there still cares, I’m not actually gay.

IRENE: Well, I am. Look at us both.

 

 

I f***ing love that dialog. I love Irene for pointing out to television audiences all over the world that it really isn't that cut and dried when it comes to who we are or are not attracted to. That neither of them is gay is actually one of the weakest arguments against a future relationship in my book.

 

I think Irene was both right and wrong about Sherlock and John. At that time in their lives, they were kind of like a couple, yes. But there really wasn't any indication at all that John was attracted to Sherlock contrary to his general orientation the way Irene felt herself to be. Still, I love her for pointing out that in theory, this would be totally possible. Poor Irene just didn't have any understanding of love that wasn't related to sex.

 

That's the thing I can't wrap my mind around:  there is absolutely no modern reason for there to be a "conspiracy."  In the modern world, if John and Sherlock were the slightest bit interested in each other in "that way," they would have acted on it by now.  There is no tragedy; there are few societal norms left to keep them apart (and Sherlock wouldn't care); there is no reason why this would be hidden.  If they were a romantic/sexual couple, they would be just that. 

 

Yes... and no. I mean, yeah, you are right and I have said the same thing myself lots of times. But on the other hand, we might as well say "if Benedict and Beatrice wanted each other, they would have gotten married right away; Shakespeare doesn't make any sense." Or Darcy and Elizabeth. Or Emma and Mr. Knightley. If Moulder and Scully were going to end up together anyway, why weren't they a couple from the start in X-files?

 

There's thankfully no good reason any more why a same-sex relationship should be mentioned only indirectly through hints and subtle clues. But there are a gazillion reasons to tell a love-story in a manner that isn't straight-forward.

 

 

My main argument (right now, I'll probably reject it in time and find a new one) against the idea that John and Sherlock are in love and will end up together is that I am pretty darn sure Sherlock isn't attracted to John and does not want to be. In fact, I think that's the last thing he'd want. Sherlock has issues with sex. If John's presence brought to the surface any primal urges, he'd have kicked him out of the flat long before the beginning of series 2. I think Sherlock feels comparatively comfortable in John's presence because he isn't the slightest bit interested in or distracted by his body.

  • Like 3
Posted

 

 

I think Irene was both right and wrong about Sherlock and John. At that time in their lives, they were kind of like a couple, yes. But there really wasn't any indication at all that John was attracted to Sherlock contrary to his general orientation the way Irene felt herself to be. Still, I love her for pointing out that in theory, this would be totally possible.   (Quoting Toby the lazy way here.)

 

I think it's perfectly possible to be a couple without being either sexually or romantically attracted to one another.  That's the thing I like about most of the Holmes-Watson relationships.  They belong to each other; they understand each other.  They are each other's first call; they are the one who will rescue the other.  

 

We know John has a tendency to come whenever Sherlock calls (and does in the various Holmes iterations); he probably buys Sherlock's favorite tea and his preferred brand of toilet roll just because he knows that's what Sherlock likes.  Whatever accommodations Sherlock makes, he is making far more of them for John than he would for anyone else.  And, of course, there is the fact that they will literally kill for one another (cabbie and CAM).

 

Relationships like this are interesting not least because, from a story-telling perspective, they require more creativity than the sexual/romantic kind.  It's easy to write a scene where your couple falls into one another's arms or where they hold hands secretly or whatever physical expression you like.  It's easy to have characters say "I love you."  It's not as easy to make your characters show that, even without any formalized relationship like a wedding, the two are never going to leave one another and are always going to be together in some way.  That's the part I like, and that's the part that frustrates me about TJLC in particular.

  • Like 4
Posted

For me the biggest problem of all with Johnlock is that John just isn't gay, and Johnlock fanfiction is about a gay relationship. So even IF Sherlock was gay, and I don't think he is, the romantic feelings would only be a one way street. .....

I have seen a few fics that assume Sherlock is gay, but John isn't, and never will be ... and make a somewhat believable argument that Sherlock has simply hidden his heart away in order to retain John's friendship. But I agree, the majority of the fics I've glanced at are about having sex. Period. Between anybody, as near as I can tell, <_< but especially John and Sherlock.

 

.... I especially think that Mofftiss kind of didn't realize at first the monster they were creating. I think they thought they were creating a small, niche show that would be watched primarily by people familiar with ACD or willing to become so. So that makes the jokes about whether or not John is gay somewhat funny: people have made those jokes about Watson ever since maybe 1940, when standards for masculine behavior started to re-code certain previously-masculine behavior as feminine. (For example, Victorian male friends might walk arm in arm, but 50 years later that would be a female or romantic behavior and not one for two straight men.) So, there have always been those snickers about Watson, and I think Mofftiss though that everyone would get that they were poking fun at the whole Holmesian universe, not writing a perfectly-serious tragic S/J romance.

I'm reminded of the time my art guild's board was reviewing our bylaws; some of them couldn't stop going to pieces over the phrase "the purpose of the guild is to promote intercourse between artists...." I attempted to bring them back to order by explaining that the word "intercourse" has more than one meaning, particularly back when the bylaws were written; but they simply could not get past the modern obsession with making everything about sex. Needless to say, that particular line got rewritten.

 

At any rate, I can just imagine young Mssrs. Moffat and Gatiss sniggering every time Watson "ejaculated" in the ACD stories. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if that's where half the homo-erotic "jokes" originated, right there. :rolleyes:

 

 

But this specific insistence that there is a conspiracy and "Johnlock" WILL happen someday, and they can prove it .... that's a whole different level of obsession, to me.

That's the thing I can't wrap my mind around: there is absolutely no modern reason for there to be a "conspiracy." ....

 

Exactly!

 

And, I think TAB went a long way toward proving that Sherlock is straight too.

I got the same vibe, but I can't think why! Because they showed him with Irene's photo? I actually found myself thinking, gee, maybe he could be with a girl some day after all -- but where did I get that notion? Because he finally "saw" Molly as a woman?

 

.... If Sherlock's not on a case, I don't think he leaves the flat much. I'm still surprised that he helped someone put up some shelves! Must have been quite the shelf job to warrant extra portions every time he visits the shop.

Oh geez.

 

I probably shouldn't even mention this ... but ... okay, just remember, what is seen can't be unseen, and this one had me going in circles for weeks ...

 

Apparently, according to the ever-terrifying Urban Dictionary, "putting up shelves" is yet another euphemism for having sex. I kid you not. There's even a fanfic about it. The thing I want to know is ... did anyone associated with the production know that "definition"? Because Sherlock's smirk when he says it sure as heck takes on a different meaning if they did.... :blink:

 

 

Yeah, I don't quite get this "conspiracy" thing either. But do you really think most of the people who claim to believe in it are really serious? Seems more likely to me that for most, it's a kind of a game.

Good question. I can't really get a feel for it ... clearly a lot of people think it's just for fun. But there are clearly some who take it seriously, too. What the actual percentages are, I can't begin to guess. Maybe the serious ones are just more provocative, so they get more attention?

 

There's thankfully no good reason any more why a same-sex relationship should be mentioned only indirectly through hints and subtle clues. But there are a gazillion reasons to tell a love-story in a manner that isn't straight-forward.

Yeah, but throwing obstacles into the path of true love is a bit different than creating an entire conspiracy, isn't it? I don't know ... maybe this is just one of those things you either get or you don't.

 

Relationships like this are interesting not least because, from a story-telling perspective, they require more creativity than the sexual/romantic kind.  It's easy to write a scene where your couple falls into one another's arms or where they hold hands secretly or whatever physical expression you like.  It's easy to have characters say "I love you."  It's not as easy to make your characters show that, even without any formalized relationship like a wedding, the two are never going to leave one another and are always going to be together in some way.  That's the part I like, and that's the part that frustrates me about TJLC in particular.

Because it over-simplifies the relationship, you mean? Yeah, I think I feel that way too. Also, as a creator, I'm frustrated when people willfully misinterpret something I've done, so maybe I'm just over-identifying with Moftiss here. (Especially since they did bring it on themselves.........)

 

I had a guy once do a complete psychoanalysis of a painting of mine, concluding with the statement that I was trying to resolve issues with my father. Er... no. I just wanted to paint something I liked looking at; but he insisted he was right and I just wouldn't admit it. :o Impertinent! Offensive! :smile:

  • Like 2
Posted

And nobody can erase the Moriarty line about them eloping, no urban dictionary needed, just plain good old Merriam-Webster: running away to get married! It's as neat as a Rubic cube: we'll eventually sort it out :D

Posted

Well, the "putting up shelves" thing... erm.... yeah, there was a smirk but I think it was not intended in the euphemism sense.  I think he was just having a moment of being a normal bloke instead of it all being about casework for him.  Ummm.... he's never made such euphemistic remarks about his activities before, so why start now and in that dialogue with Molly when he was asking her out for a bit to eat?

 

Ermmm... hmmmm.  Arcadia, don't put things like that in my head!

  • Like 1
Posted

:lol5: putting up shelves, whoa.. didn‘t know that. But I‘d believe he did the handy works more. Maybe he was visiting for a case, and this guy did a very horrible job or the shelves were not perpendicular, on the right angle and direction and he had to fix it because he couldn't stand it or vice versa. Mycroft has it, he has it, some kind of OCD.

 

I guess when two great characters have incredible chemistry, people would want to see them together. Being a couple, having sex or whatever, but it's predictable and boring. Boring boring boring.. basically every other shows are like that or going to that direction.

I prefer this to be special relationship, platonic with great chemisty.

  • Like 3
Posted

 

 

And, I think TAB went a long way toward proving that Sherlock is straight too.

I got the same vibe, but I can't think why! Because they showed him with Irene's photo? I actually found myself thinking, gee, maybe he could be with a girl some day after all -- but where did I get that notion? Because he finally "saw" Molly as a woman?

 

 

 

I think it was the entire episode for me.  He's carrying Irene's photo.  He's attracted to Lady Carmichael/the pilot with the wonderfully high arches (John even calls him on it, which means he's really calling himself out on his attraction).  And he winds up confronting a room full of potential brides that he has turned away with a literally Victorian attitude toward women. You notice that Molly and Janine, both potential romantic partners, were in that room, but Mrs. Hudson was not.  These are women he has tried on and rejected as romantic partners.

 

Re: "putting up shelves."  I looked that up a long time ago, and I think that's a case of not always taking Urban Dictionary as gospel.  I don't think Sherlock was making a sexual innuendo there; I think he really did help the fish and chips guy get off of some criminal charge, but he was teasing Molly a bit that it was something ordinary.  More like "No, of course this didn't have anything to do with criminal activity; I helped him move into his new flat." Or something like that.

  • Like 1
Posted

Well, the "putting up shelves" thing... erm.... yeah, there was a smirk but I think it was not intended in the euphemism sense.  I think he was just having a moment of being a normal bloke instead of it all being about casework for him.  Ummm.... he's never made such euphemistic remarks about his activities before, so why start now and in that dialogue with Molly when he was asking her out for a bit to eat?

 

Ermmm... hmmmm.  Arcadia, don't put things like that in my head!

:lol5: putting up shelves, whoa.. didn‘t know that. But I‘d believe he did the handy works more. Maybe he was visiting for a case, and this guy did a very horrible job or the shelves were not perpendicular, on the right angle and direction and he had to fix it because he couldn't stand it or vice versa. Mycroft has it, he has it, some kind of OCD.

Re: "putting up shelves." I looked that up a long time ago, and I think that's a case of not always taking Urban Dictionary as gospel. I don't think Sherlock was making a sexual innuendo there; I think he really did help the fish and chips guy get off of some criminal charge, but he was teasing Molly a bit that it was something ordinary. More like "No, of course this didn't have anything to do with criminal activity; I helped him move into his new flat." Or something like that.

I know, I know! But I did warn you! :D I finally decided the same thing you ladies did, but man ... well, let's just say that's when I discovered how many TJLC blogs there are. Although interestingly enough, I've only ever seen one mention of this theory (believe me, I looked), and that was in the fanfiction I mentioned. Oh God .... I knew I shouldn't have released this into the world, now it's going to be all over the place, isn't it? :blink:

 

 

 

And, I think TAB went a long way toward proving that Sherlock is straight too.

I got the same vibe, but I can't think why! Because they showed him with Irene's photo? I actually found myself thinking, gee, maybe he could be with a girl some day after all -- but where did I get that notion? Because he finally "saw" Molly as a woman?
 

I think it was the entire episode for me.  He's carrying Irene's photo.  He's attracted to Lady Carmichael/the pilot with the wonderfully high arches (John even calls him on it, which means he's really calling himself out on his attraction).  And he winds up confronting a room full of potential brides that he has turned away with a literally Victorian attitude toward women. You notice that Molly and Janine, both potential romantic partners, were in that room, but Mrs. Hudson was not.  These are women he has tried on and rejected as romantic partners.

Soooo..... you're saying Sherlock was hot for the pilot? :D

Posted

 

Soooo..... you're saying Sherlock was hot for the pilot? :D

 

 

Absolutely!  

  • Like 1
Posted

The only thing is that in the scene where SH is confronted with all the brides, Janine stays in line, but Molly approaches him, and the camera frames her so lovingly and warmly, lingering a bit on her... what does it mean?  I don't know entirely, but I do know that they wouldn't have wasted production money on it if they didn't want it to mean something.  I do think he ranks her higher than Janine, however.  I don't buy the idea that he just sees her as "one of the boys."  He was clearly aware of her lipstick and the size of her mouth in ASIP and then even comments on the size of her breasts in ASIB.  He is aware of her body, that somehow it doesn't meet up to whatever standards he has set for the ideal female form.

 

And then there's the old question of what really went on behind the closed bathroom door between Janine and Sherlock?  He was getting into the bath and would have had to undress in front of her.  She likely made a little appreciative sound.  There may have been hugging and fondling of her on his part.  Was it all for John's benefit?  Was it all to keep Janine believing something more was happening?  But they didn't have sex.  Poor John who had never seen anything remotely like that during his years with Sherlock must certainly be wondering what else had been going on in 221B since Sherlock had the place to himself.

  • Like 1
Posted

Well, I think the only reason they framed Molly like that is because ... well, it was Molly. Our Molly. Beloved of the fans. And she's certainly a bigger part of the overall story than Janine, so she gets a bigger scene.

 

My favorite thing about that scene is when he says "Hooper," and she says "Holmes" ... and the way she says it sums up so, so much about the Molly/Sherlock relationship. Hurt, love, accusation, bitterness, acceptance... lovely, lovely bit.

  • Like 3
Posted

Well, I think the only reason they framed Molly like that is because ... well, it was Molly. Our Molly. Beloved of the fans. And she's certainly a bigger part of the overall story than Janine, so she gets a bigger scene.

 

My favorite thing about that scene is when he says "Hooper," and she says "Holmes" ... and the way she says it sums up so, so much about the Molly/Sherlock relationship. Hurt, love, accusation, bitterness, acceptance... lovely, lovely bit.

 

 

Well, that's certainly how Sherlock framed her in his mind palace.  

  • Like 1
Posted

I think that Molly gets more treatment in Sherlock's mind palace because he's known her longer, and he has to work harder to categorize her as something that he can work with and be around without being threatened by the possibility of sex.  As sfmpco has pointed out, he has figured out opinions about her lipstick and her breasts, just like he noticed Lady Carmichael's high arches.  But he has to put her into a "one of the boys" category, perhaps not because he fails to see her gender but because he sees it too much, and admitting that would get in the way of the work.  He has to make himself think of her as parallel to Lestrade and Anderson in order to get any of the work done.

 

As for Janine, I've always thought and said that he was having a fair amount of fun with her in the bath and elsewhere, but he was able to excuse it to himself as being part of the work, just like the drugs were.  I think he thinks enjoying himself is fine if it is part of the work but perhaps not at any other time, so he continually redefines things he wants to do anyway as something he has to do as part of a case.  

Posted

You wonder why we love this guy so much, he's such a jerk! :smile:

  • Like 1
Posted

Jerks have their own appeal to people who don't know better.read: idiots.

 

Jerks who don't realize that they are jerks or intend to be jerks have appeals for smarties as well. :p

Posted

Well, I think the only reason they framed Molly like that is because ... well, it was Molly. Our Molly. Beloved of the fans. And she's certainly a bigger part of the overall story than Janine, so she gets a bigger scene.

 

My favorite thing about that scene is when he says "Hooper," and she says "Holmes" ... and the way she says it sums up so, so much about the Molly/Sherlock relationship. Hurt, love, accusation, bitterness, acceptance... lovely, lovely bit.

 

I still flail a bit at that scene.  In some ways it reminds me very much of the scene at that bottom of the stairs in TEH.   

  • Like 1
Posted

Yes. Bittersweet. Dang it.

Posted

Arrrgghh ... I hate to say it, but my first reaction was, those are all the things he needed to remember in order to get her to do his bidding .... except for the Christmas scene. And he didn't need his memory then, she was standing right in front of him. Sorry!!! 35o46Bs.gif

  • Like 1

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