Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[sfmpco]

It just doesn't make sense that anyone but Mary questioned her.  

[Boton]

It just doesn't make sense that anyone but Mary questioned her.  

 

OK, why? 

[Boton]

 

It just doesn't make sense that anyone but Mary questioned her.  

 

OK, why? 

 

 

By the way, sfmpco hasn't responded to my short little question there, and she doesn't have to, but I wanted to note that I'm not trying to be a smart aleck here.  I really would love to hear her reasoning, because the bolt hole interview scene is not one that I typically pay a lot of attention to during HLV, so I really want to see if I've missed clues that certain interviews had to have been done by certain people.  I know we see some of the interviewers, but not all of them, especially in the Molly interview.

[Pseudonym]

How did you guys imagine young Sherlock? I thought he would have been less robust, one of those kids that's skinny and all elbows and knees...

[T.o.b.y]

How did you guys imagine young Sherlock? I thought he would have been less robust, one of those kids that's skinny and all elbows and knees...

 

I imagine that's what he looked like as a teenager. I had never thought about it  before His Last Vow, but the cute little boy with the curly hair seemed right, somehow. I bet Sherlock was Mummy's spoiled little baby and Mycroft was jealous.

 

Wonder how he went from that child to the man we know. Something must have happened. Not necessarily something big or tragic, but something.

[Arcadia]

How did you guys imagine young Sherlock? I thought he would have been less robust, one of those kids that's skinny and all elbows and knees...

 

As a child, you mean? I admit I never gave it any thought. But as a 20-something, I like to imagine he looked much the way he did in the pilot episode; a bit gawky, a little underfed, and rather ethereal.

 

[Van Buren Supernova]

Yepp yep: gawky, underfed and ethereal.

 

Have you guys talked about Moriarty's story {I know I haven't because I was only in here when there were already over a hundred page..(just checking..good god! This is 230th page! XD)}

 

For miss me? scene, I didn't see anyone's reactions other than the keycasts, but I suppose it's surprising and has impact to drive fear in London's population, therefore they think it's really important and essential to get Sherlock rightaway.

 

So what is Moriarty's stories? Is his death known? His crimes, his capabilities? Did people know his confrontation with Sherlock? Afterall, they still believe in Richard Brook for a long time. So did they also think Sherlock killed him in the rooftop, or Mycroft covered it up?

 

I thought it should be covered up until Sherlock is proven innocent, but why so? Moriarty's people would know that he died, very soon. Unless they don't, because he hardly showed himself, just like with General Shan and Jeff Hope. Maybe someone took over his communication and covered up death from his network, but why? That should give Sherlock more room and opportunities to roam around them and it could work against their interest. Unless they purposely did so. But why? Etc etc..

Rahhh...

 

Cleanup on aisle 5, Mind Palace, please.

[Arcadia]

Oh, I'm sure it's been discussed in some form or another, but that shouldn't stop us from discussing it again!

 

I think "the trial of the century" in TRF would have made Moriarty famous, so the public must have known something about him. And I figure it must be more or less public knowledge that he's dead, or else the "miss me" phrase wouldn't make much sense. How can you miss him if you don't know he's been gone?

 

On the other hand, they've clearly left Moriarty's fate vague on purpose, so who knows what they're up to.

 

If they're being realistic (and how likely is that? :P ) I think there would be a lot of people who still believe the Richard Brook story.

[Pseudonym]

When Sherlock came back from the dead and his name was cleared I think the papers would have reported that Moriarty was real since that's the part that actually clears Sherlock's name. I think the story of Sherlock coming back from the dead would have been huge enough for most people to be aware. As for Moriarty being dead, I don't know. It does seem like something that would have been covered up, but there would have to be some sort of public story where this super criminal had gone so maybe not. It just seems like an anti-climatic end to the story as far as the tabloids are concerned - you know this massively intelligent and scary criminal? He killed himself so he's no longer a worry.

As for the 'did you miss me' I think that's aimed solely at Sherlock (and perhaps Mycroft) Moriarty or whoever is behind the messages probably doesn't care all that much what the public thinks.

[J.P.]

I know we've been wondering about Jim's body on the roof and what happened to it. Anderson knows about him because of his fall theory. But we haven't discussed it in the context of the miss me message. I would have much more impact if he was known.

 

Imagine a pic of Chales Manson or Osama appearing in all monitors in your country.

[Arcadia]

Well, Molly, Mrs. H and Lestrade appear to know Moriarty's supposed to be dead, judging from their reactions when the message appears. But you can hear some bloke in the bar go "who's that?" And I agree that the news-watching public would have heard the Jim was a true villain after all ... but there's no indication that his death was reported.

 

I don't think there is an answer, to be honest, because there's not supposed to be one. It's a mystery!

[J.P.]

Oh, you know how short the public's memory is. Two weeks and all is gone to make space for other sensations.

[Janine M. Adler]

but i am still wondering how Sherlock's name will be cleared since he killed CAM for real.

[J.P.]

CAM had an accident. He fell down the stairs to his Vaults.

[Pseudonym]

I get the impression the only people who know he killed CAM are high in power or Mycroft's lackeys (except John and Mary). I doubt the public know, so it would probably be fairly easy for them to swap one punishment (the suicide mission) for another (putting down 'Moriaty'). I don't think it's something the public is necessarily aware of, unless there's a scene showing it going public that I'm forgetting?

[Arcadia]

but i am still wondering how Sherlock's name will be cleared since he killed CAM for real.

Two things -- I suspect that CAM's death has been attributed to either suicide or a "mysterious intruder" -- and Sherlock will receive, in private, a pardon.

 

This is an example of why I think Mycroft being so powerful is bad for the story; I think it would be better for Sherlock if he had to endure the public consequences of having killed CAM. If I'm right, though, he is literally going to get away with murder. Sigh. I still love him.

 

CAM had an accident. He fell down the stairs to his Vaults.

Oh hahaha. ;)

 

 

ETA ... oops, cross-posted with you, Pseud. So, yeah, I agree with you!

[Pseudonym]

Why do you think they took out the CAM scene with Sherlock at the hospital? I'm glad they did because it's repulsive and makes my skin crawl but then that was the point. Do you think it was because it was so emasculating? I'm guessing the idea was to give Sherlock even more of a motive for his hatred and subsequent murder. 

[Arcadia]

Maybe I've invented this, but I'm thinking that somewhere it was said they thought it was too similar to Mary's scene where she shows up in the hospital and sort of threatens Sherlock. Although I wonder that they didn't delete Mary's scene instead, if that was the case. Maybe they didn't want to dilute her threat by adding CAM's.

 

Also, having that creepy visit from Magnussen, then following it up with yet another visit, this time the slightly humorous one from Janine, might have been an awkward transition in tone - ?

[Van Buren Supernova]

But it's kind of useful to show what Sherlock is dealing on regular basis: enemy, hiddenenemy/frienemy, friend?

 

I only watched the deleted Magnussen's scene once. Goddammit, get your disgusting hand of Sherlock! But imho, it's also essential to portray Sherlock's despision of him, to further back up his decision at the end. He already hates him in the beginning, and now this.

 

Hey, maybe Sherlock shooting him is not completely selfless, maybe he also feel threatened by Magnussen? I think it makes sense too.

[Arcadia]

Maybe that's why they deleted it? They didn't want to make it seem too personal between Sherlock and Magnussen, and instead wanted to keep it more that Sherlock was protecting his friends? Don't know.

 

From everything Steven Moffat has said (to be fair, not a huge amount), he thinks Magnussen deserved to die, because he was a creep. Period, end of story. None of this moral ambiguity I have so much trouble with. Must be nice. :p

 

Actually, I agree that Magnussen "deserved" to die. What I don't agree with is that Sherlock deserved to kill him. Try as I might, I just can't believe anyone has that right. Period, end of story. So I go round and round, like a morally compromised teddy bear in an increasingly thorny garden.....

[Van Buren Supernova]

No no, don't give up believing that. The world is boring and scary if people can't see two sides of everything.

I get why you believe yours, I also hold on to what I believe, but it's changeable if I'm convinced, which I haven't so it's still die Magnussen...dieeee... get him Sherl..!

 

I think the scene when he meets Magnussen in hospital cafe and Appedore help preventing the 'too personal' factor. Sherlock didn't show unreasonable behaviors based on hatred, and those are after the hospital scene.

 

Maybe. I just think that it would be interesting too that Sherlock feels that this man really had failed everything; he threatened people, everyone, his friends, himself. Once he gets a claw on someone, he would treat them like shit or dispose them and burn their reputation. And there is almost nothing he could do, there probably no other chance and Magnussen would take necessary steps to block everything, every way. Maybe he views this as the only chance to do something to this despicable man.

 

I don't think Sherlock wants to experience the fear he felt in HOB, the exploitation and manipulation that almost makes him a biggest traitor in SIB, even the ruined reputation like TRF and of course, Redbeard. And this guy knows them all. I think it's pretty terrifying. And of course, Magnussen can always use John to 'control' him, and he himself can be used to control Mycroft, which is very very dangerous.

 

So that shoot, while I believe is mostly for John, part of it could be motivated by his own fears and needs too.

 

 

Then after all those, I hate myself again by trying to put myself in Magnussen's shoes. Magnussen doesn't think he is a villain. He is a businessman. Which I think, is not totally absurd, from his point of view. The people he targets are not 'innocent' people, as far as we know. When he doesn't need it, he stores information instead of creating havoc. What makes him different than.. said.. Irene Adler?

Of course I think he is bad, really bad, because he threatens and blackmails, and uses his skills to get what he wants. But in actuality, it's not that uncommon with everyday people except the scale.

 

I'm not defending him, god no,

It's just crazy that if we are willing to put ourselves in their shoes, we can build up a belief and justification.

[Arcadia]

I think Magnussen was the true sociopath, in that he had no regard whatsoever for other people's rights. Other people were nothing but merchandise to him, and that's about as low as you can get, imo.

 

And he did target "innocent" people; he went after Lady Smallwood, who was presented to us as a person of upstanding character. He went after John. I don't think it mattered to him one bit whether the people he targeted were innocent or not; the point was whether he could manipulate them to his own ends. No, not even to his own ends; his goal in life was to "own" people, period.

 

I also think Sherlock is the one who felt he was the failure. Well, he was. Lord Smallwood killed himself because Sherlock was unable to stop Magnussen. It would be typical of Sherlock, I think, to blame himself for that (instead of Mary. If she hadn't shot him, who knows what Sherlock might have accomplished that night?) Maybe that was another factor in his decision to shoot CAM; he figured he had nothing else to lose, at least he could take CAM down with him.

 

Ugh, I hate thinking that Sherlock has such a low opinion of his own worth, but it certainly seems that way to me sometimes. I blame Mycroft. :p

[J.P.]

I think CAM is one of those people who you never get to. He has all the strings in his hand. There is even a chance that he owes Mycroft.

 

How can you stop him legally, if he knows every pressure point of every person involved in his legal trial?

[Arcadia]

Remove the pressure point.
 
What Lady Smallwood and her hubby should have done is gotten ahead of the story ... they should have released the love letters themselves, given their version of the truth, sued Magnussen for blackmail, and weathered the storm. Really, in this day and age, how much would people have really cared about such a story anyway? But hiring a private detective ... well, as we see, that just led to worse trouble.
 
Mary's a difficult case because she appears to be a criminal herself, who actually belongs in prison. Ah! That's how they could "get rid" of Mary! Have her finally do the right thing, admit her guilt, and go to prison for the rest of her life! With, er, the baby in tow.... never mind. Anyway, that's what put Sherlock in such a position ... trying to protect someone who was actually guilty of her crimes, instead of turning her over to the authorities. But the latter wouldn't have been much of a story, would it?

 

I still want to know what Mycroft knew/knows about Mary and why he didn't/doesn't take any action against her either. I hope there's an actual reason and not just because it makes the storytelling more convenient.
 
Good heavens, a minute ago the radio was playing the Thieving Magpie, now it's playing the theme from Cabin Pressure. Is the DJ a Cumberbatch fan too?

[Pseudonym]

They could have Mary given evidence against someone and having to go into witness protection in another country, and rather than separating baby Watson from her mother John has to let her go too. Thus freeing him up for life back with Sherlock  

I would be quite intrigued to see Mary as the villain of the season, if she's done really smart and badass, but I don't think they'll do that since they always get accused of misogyny as it stands and that seems like asking for a trouble. Shipping them off seems the most likely to me. 

And yes, I really hope they don't gloss over Mycroft, I really don't see how he could know and not care that someone shot his brother. I know we've been talking about the trope of fix-it-Mycroft but him ignoring it just doesn't seem at all realistic to me even if it's not about her shooting Sherlock so much as her daring to touch a Holmes. 

Ahh, I love Cabin Pressure, always cracks me up :D