Episode 4.2 "The Lying Detective"

[Arcadia]

 

Gatiss also wrote The Hound of Baskerville which I thought had a pretty good script. What did you guys think of it?

 

Alas, it's not a favorite either. It doesn't pull at my heartstrings the way my favorite episodes do, so I'm more conscious of the, er, more unlikely aspects of the story. But it looks gorgeous; the shots of the moors; the night scenes contrasting with the stark whiteness of the lab facilities; the mind palace sequence.....

 

I suspect Mr. Gatiss' scripts work better for people who actually care about the "canon." I don't, so it doesn't bother me when they stray from it; but references to it don't impress me either, because I miss most of them. When people point them out to me afterwards, I admit, they're pretty cool. But the absence of them wouldn't phase me in the least, it's not why I'm watching.

 

It isn't right to only blame the director- and of course different teams have a different chemistry. Then also, Gatiss got landed with the worst plot point of the season so far, IMO- Mary's Death, so that was there to tackle too.

 

And that's an excellent point. Again, I didn't mean to come down so hard on the director, but I had a very visceral reaction to T6T, and alas it was negative. So it keeps coming out. Where's my muzzle? But yeah, where were Sue and Mark and Steven during screening and editing? I assume they noticed the difference and decided to let it pass. :(

 

I have to admit I'm not crazy about the idea of John as a single father. The fact we didn't see Rosie at all in this episode seems to suggest it's just going to be something kept aside from the main plot, but I'm just thinking if there is another season at some point in the distant future that's always going to be a dynamic that comes into play. I can't see John ever moving back into Baker Street when he has a daughter to take care of....

 

I'm not really keen on him moving back anyway until he's retired and alone and it therefore makes sense. And by then Rosie will be off living her own life, yeah? Heck, John might even get married again, he seems like the type. Hopefully not to an assassin next time, though. Maybe a nice policewoman. Or a psychologist. :D

 

 

I think John's behaviour is one of the things we've looked at but didn't see. More about it later.

Yes please! I await your comments.

 

I was both surprised and unsurprised by John's behavior this time around. It's a really nuanced portrayal, all kudos to Martin for pulling it off. But it does leave the audience sort of in limbo with him, which I didn't see coming. But I approve the plot twist, if you can call it that. (Character twist?) John deserves to have some of his inner life explored too, not just Sherlock. I hope they continue in this vein, John needs to be re-established as Sherlock's equal in importance, imo. Story-wise, I mean. They even poked fun at his relative insignificance themselves, with people barely applauding when his name was mentioned, and things like that.

 

A question:

Did you notice that Mary (and I think someone else, but don‘t remember now) sometimes mimics Jim? Making faces like him in the limousine, or even using his words: attaboy! There was more I think, i had several little WTF moments about it.

 

No, I didn't notice, and I'm inclined to think Mary's part in the story is really over, so I'll be surprised if it means anything. (Oh go ahead, surprise me.)

 

But I did figure out why, for a split second there, I thought Euros was going to reveal she was Moriarty. As she's revealing her true identity she makes, oh so briefly, that same lopsided grimace that Jim made at the pool. This one: --->  :/ I suspect coincidence, but plaudits for the actress if it was intentional!

 

In regards to Redbeard, could it be a metaphor for Eurus? I know we've seen Redbeard in Sherlock's mind palace, but what if it is a name from their childhood game of pirates, with Sherlock being Blackbeard and the sister being Redbeard?

I like this idea. Clearly there's something significant about pirates or Mycroft wouldn't keep bringing it up. And yet he always seems puzzled by it when he mentions it, as if he can't fathom why a child would be interested in pirates. And maybe he can't.

  

When people are referring to Mary's ghost, no one is thinking she's actually meant to be a ghost right?

I can't speak for everyone else, but no, I don't think she's a ghost. (There are no ghosts!) I think she's a metaphor. Edited January 13, 2017 by Arcadia
Fixed missing quote boxes ... hopefully it will make some sense now! :)

[Arcadia]

Speaking of pirates: did anyone else notice BC's dead-on impersonation of Jack Sparrow asking for tea? Ahhh, that's our boy.

[Sh_Sharon]

I don't know if I mentioned this here but I don't like some of the 'cleverness' they are trying to do with filming.   To me, the whole explanation of how he deduced Fake Faith living in a small place by the fading of the note,  who cares?  The elaborate filming of the window, Sherlock moving it... we could have used that time for something else.  This whole season I think they have been captivated by their cleverness with filming, dropping a billion Holmes story easter eggs,  I personally don't care about that.  I'd rather have good story telling.  I know I am in the minority of not loving this season or this episode but ....

[Alex the Dabbler]

Apparently Sian Brooke had to audition for each disguised role separately:

 

http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2017-01-12/sian-brooke-auditioned-several-times-for-sherlock-after-being-told-that-each-of-euruss-disguises-were-separate-roles

Edited January 13, 2017 by Carol the Dabbler
Moved here from Series 4 News thread -- a bit of a spoiler!!!

[Inge l-w]

Dear Sh_Sharon, seeing as how the reviews are mostly highly critical of this season, you are not in the minority! But good storytelling was actually what made Sherlock Holmes such an iconic character in the first place, by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. And the fanboy duo is now caught between a rock and a hard place: they have to compete against countless copies of the original, from House MD to Hawaii 5-0, going through The Closer, Poirot and Captain Hastings, Albert Campion and his faithful Lugg, DCI Morse and Sgr. Lewis, DI Lewis and Sgr. Hathaway, the list is endless. At the same time, they have to combine enough original material with their version of it to keep Sherlockians (and not simply the Cumbercollective) happy. It looks like they won't be able to maintain a balance; from where I stand, they lost the ball ever since S3, now we're all watching the fallout of decisions taken back in 2013.

And have you read the comments on those reviews, especially the Daily Mail ones? Apparently, Benedict's stance on the refugee situation during his Hamlet run has affected his standing in the U.K. Good thing Marvel has given him a new opening!

Query: what is that weird tendency of Sherlock's to use probability theory and large numbers theory and Second Foundation Hari Sheldon's mathematical formula to predict the future?

[sherlockandjohn]

 

I suspect Mr. Gatiss' scripts work better for people who actually care a fig about the "canon."

 

That could be true. As for me, I know next to nothing of canon, but I still enjoy Gatiss' scripts. The Six Thatchers is my least favorite of his, but I don't dislike it. I just got slightly bored at one point, which I think is the first time for me when watching Sherlock.

 

I'm racking my brain to see if I can find the common denominator for his scripts that makes me like them, but I can't. I think it depends on the plot and character portrayal, mostly. There are weaknesses in the scripts for TST and TEH, but I still like the overall plot and character portrayal.

 

I also have to wonder how much of the script each man writes on his own... Just because one of them is credited for the writing, doesn't mean he wrote it entirely on his own, does it?

[Carol the Dabbler]

Copied here from another thread:

 

Second episode was right on the money. Almost made me forget the 4.1 episode. Really liked the part where Holmes tried to figure what's real and what's not. Only this episode was overhyped in my opinion since Holmes usually takes cases that are interesting and imo Culverton wasn't really that interesting. Yes he was evil, yes he was hard to catch, but that was about it. Compared to other criminal masterminds Sherlock has battled with, Culverton seems almost stupid. Even the fact how he wanted to confess. Still the show spent a whole episode on him. It just really annoys me, how we're constantly teased with Moriarty's 'MISS ME?' and still the show makers have spent two episodes without doing much about it and giving us villains like Culverton.

 

[BLS_Pro]

Arcadia - at work right now so on IPhone and can't deliver my full response at the moment. But concerning your point 5, that is the script and show runner. The script dictated the aquarium. There were only a couple angles they could use there. As such the director was constrained by the location due to the script. That's why the angles were pedestrian and the editing etc were all constrained- and why montage had to be used in introducing and leaving the scene.

[T.o.b.y]

 

 I suspect Mr. Gatiss' scripts work better for people who actually care a fig about the "canon."

 

Well, I am one of those people, but I can't make any kind of general statement about Mr Gatiss' episodes. I absolutely love The Great Game (my favorite episode of all still) and I very much appreciate what he did with The Hound of the Baskervilles, the novel that introduced me to Sherlock Holmes and so holds a special place in my heart. I thought the adaptation was very clever and I like it for its own sake as well even though it's a bit too scary for me to watch when I am home alone. But I did not like The Empty Hearse very much (also it had its moments) and I am afraid The Six Thatchers will become my least favorite episode of the entire show.

 

 

When people are referring to Mary's ghost, no one is thinking she's actually meant to be a ghost right?

 

Certainly not me. I only call her Mary's ghost because I do not find her believable as an inner voice of John's. She's too much exactly like herself and it also comes across as if he's got access to her superior intelligence and insight even though she is no longer actually there, so she seems more like a ghost to me than a part of John's consciousness.

 

Her presence, the way it is done, anyway, is my main complaint about this episode. I had just made my peace with her through The Six Thatchers (no, not because she sacrificed herself, that scene was horrible and tacky if you ask me, lowest point of the show. Sorry for being so drastic, but it really bothered me). Then when she was back in The Lying Detective and so clearly back as herself, not as additional depth to John's character, I felt very, very annoyed. If they cannot stand dead characters, they should just not kill them off in the first place. So there.

 

She takes away so much from the boys. And she gets credit for so many things that were there long before she showed up. Sherlock always knew how to get John to come out of his shell, toss his physical and psychological canes and become himself again. That's how their friendship began in the first place. He wouldn't have needed Mary to instruct him how to "save" his best friend. And John has always wanted to live up to the "good man" ideal that Sherlock labeled him with. At least that's what previous episodes implied (to me, at any rate). Now suddenly it's all about Mary and if she weren't around past her expiration date to help them out the two stupid boys still wouldn't be talking to each other, Sherlock would be completely out of control on drugs and John might have killed himself. Yeah, right.

 

 

I can't see John ever moving back into Baker Street when he has a daughter to take care of....

 

No, me neither. And I do not expect the series to end where it began, even though I would love that. I think that the last we see of John and Sherlock, they will be going separate ways, peacefully and with restored mutual fondness, but still separate. John will take care of Rosie and Sherlock will retreat to a remote location, maybe Janine's cottage. It will be like the original "ending" (which I hated and so hoped they would change) and we can only hope that a few years into the future, when Rosie is older, the boys will reunite for one last adventure like they did for His Last Bow - though I do hope it won't be a war that draws them out.

[Surelock]

 

 

 

When people are referring to Mary's ghost, no one is thinking she's actually meant to be a ghost right?

 

Certainly not me. I only call her Mary's ghost because I do not find her believable as an inner voice of John's. She's too much exactly like herself and it also comes across as if he's got access to her superior intelligence and insight even though she is no longer actually there, so she seems more like a ghost to me than a part of John's consciousness.

 

Her presence, the way it is done, anyway, is my main complaint about this episode. I had just made my peace with her through The Six Thatchers (no, not because she sacrificed herself, that scene was horrible and tacky if you ask me, lowest point of the show. Sorry for being so drastic, but it really bothered me). Then when she was back in The Lying Detective and so clearly back as herself, not as additional depth to John's character, I felt very, very annoyed. If they cannot stand dead characters, they should just not kill them off in the first place. So there.

 

She takes away so much from the boys. And she gets credit for so many things that were there long before she showed up. Sherlock always knew how to get John to come out of his shell, toss his physical and psychological canes and become himself again. That's how their friendship began in the first place. He wouldn't have needed Mary to instruct him how to "save" his best friend. And John has always wanted to live up to the "good man" ideal that Sherlock labeled him with. At least that's what previous episodes implied (to me, at any rate). Now suddenly it's all about Mary and if she weren't around past her expiration date to help them out the two stupid boys still wouldn't be talking to each other, Sherlock would be completely out of control on drugs and John might have killed himself. Yeah, right.

 

 

TBH Sherlock wanted to leave John alone because he thought John didn't want to see him (Molly said this herself to him). Sherlock needed permission from Mary to help John.

 

Also I think it's obvious that Mary is meant to be John's guilt of not being able to live up to the good man ideal. We see her throughout the episode until John accepts he wants to be the man that Mary thought he was. Then she disappears. That makes it look like that Mary was just a figure of John's guilt. Maybe using her for comedy wasn't the best idea.

[Bellona]

Guys,

 

thank you so much for 12 pages of amazing discussion! I'm having a hard time catching up.

I absolutely loved this episode, and as so many others have said, it makes up big time for the so-so T6T.

 

I'm not sure if this is the right place to put this, and I'll try the "spoiler" thingy for the first time ever, but since everyone has been speculating about the sister, and the family connections...and since this might be a hint for the future I just go for it.

 

 

From Wiki "The Adventure of the Sussex Vampire", look it up: (...)Holmes then explains the truth about what has been happening, much to the relief of Mrs. Ferguson as this is exactly what she has wanted: for the truth to come from someone else's lips. It turns out that the culprit is Jack, Mr. Ferguson's elder son, who is extremely jealous of his young half-brother. Holmes has deduced this and confirmed it by looking at Jack's reflection in the window while his father's attention was on the baby. Jack has been attempting to murder his half-brother(...) OK, and if we think "sister" instead of Jack, and Sherlock instead of "young half-brother"...it might make sense...especially since John's "bus lady" said "vampire" in her text message.

 

 

Please forgive me in case I have missed this being mentioned before.

[LyingDetective]

So I hope I finally got it right, at least this is were you guys told me to post this.

 

I made a little parody of the latest episode 'The Lying Detective', before watching it know that it has offensive content, IT'S FOR ADULTS ONLY, spoilers  from the episode 'The Lying Detective'

 

If you still are eligible and feel like watching it. HERE'S THE LINK

[Redbeard]

I think John's behaviour is one of the things we've looked at but didn't see. More about it later.

 

I agree with that, just the fact he is both "a ladies man" AND an "adrenaline junkie" is not a good combo for becoming a down home family man.  In fact if there are more seasons (And oh how I hope there are) I think it would hilarious if he comes back to Baker St. having been married and divorced in the interim to a different woman every season.  I think the original Dr. Watson married again after Mary didn't he?  But she/they were not significant enough to mention by name lol.  Okay I mean I wouldn't SERIOUSLY want to see that, it just strikes me as amusing because I can imagine Sherlock's running commentary on it.    ;)

I don't know if I mentioned this here but I don't like some of the 'cleverness' they are trying to do with filming.   To me, the whole explanation of how he deduced Fake Faith living in a small place by the fading of the note,  who cares?  The elaborate filming of the window, Sherlock moving it... we could have used that time for something else.  This whole season I think they have been captivated by their cleverness with filming, dropping a billion Holmes story easter eggs,  I personally don't care about that.  I'd rather have good story telling.  I know I am in the minority of not loving this season or this episode but ....

 

I had the opposite reaction; I was mesmerized by that scene.  I certainly had never seen anything done quite like that before!  I find it a treat to watch scenes like that. 

[Arcadia]

I also have to wonder how much of the script each man writes on his own... Just because one of them is credited for the writing, doesn't mean he wrote it entirely on his own, does it?

Actually, I think it does. I seem to remember one of them being asked about that, and they said yeah, they pretty much write them alone. 

 

But of course they must look them over before they're filmed, and they go through more drafts after that. I can't remember what they are right now, but I noticed a few places where the episodes referenced each other, so at minimum each one knows what the other has written.

 

I noticed a continuity error; when John sees that Sherlock has been using Twitter, he says something like "he really has gone off his rocker." Yet it was established in the previous episode that Sherlock had become a tweetin' fiend!

 

Second episode was right on the money. Almost made me forget the 4.1 episode. Really liked the part where Holmes tried to figure what's real and what's not. Only this episode was overhyped in my opinion since Holmes usually takes cases that are interesting and imo Culverton wasn't really that interesting. Yes he was evil, yes he was hard to catch, but that was about it. Compared to other criminal masterminds Sherlock has battled with, Culverton seems almost stupid. Even the fact how he wanted to confess. Still the show spent a whole episode on him. It just really annoys me, how we're constantly teased with Moriarty's 'MISS ME?' and still the show makers have spent two episodes without doing much about it and giving us villains like Culverton.

I get what you're saying ... normally I'm rather bored by the villain. CAM, for example. But for some reason Smith really worked for me, I suspect mostly because how he played off of Sherlock.

 

At any rate, I think Smith was a little bit of a red herring, because the real case in TLD was saving John, not catching Smith. I think our attention was intentionally directed away from that part of the story so that the resolution of it, when it came, would have more impact. So Sherlock wasn't taking the case because it was interesting, exactly; he took it so that John would have to come running to his rescue. I thought that was pretty neat, but I'm sentimental that way. :p

 

Arcadia - at work right now so on IPhone and can't deliver my full response at the moment. But concerning your point 5, that is the script and show runner. The script dictated the aquarium. There were only a couple angles they could use there. As such the director was constrained by the location due to the script. That's why the angles were pedestrian and the editing etc were all constrained- and why montage had to be used in introducing and leaving the scene.

Possibly. But I'd love to have seen Paul McGuigan or Nick Hurran have a go at that episode. I can almost guarantee that it would have looked different.

 

 

..... I think it's obvious that Mary is meant to be John's guilt of not being able to live up to the good man ideal. We see her throughout the episode until John accepts he wants to be the man that Mary thought he was. Then she disappears. That makes it look like that Mary was just a figure of John's guilt. Maybe using her for comedy wasn't the best idea.

 

This is pretty much my take on her presence as well. I thought it was fabulous, to be honest, once I got used to it.

[Arcadia]

 

I don't know if I mentioned this here but I don't like some of the 'cleverness' they are trying to do with filming.   To me, the whole explanation of how he deduced Fake Faith living in a small place by the fading of the note,  who cares?  The elaborate filming of the window, Sherlock moving it... we could have used that time for something else.  This whole season I think they have been captivated by their cleverness with filming, dropping a billion Holmes story easter eggs,  I personally don't care about that.  I'd rather have good story telling.  I know I am in the minority of not loving this season or this episode but ....

 

I had the opposite reaction; I was mesmerized by that scene.  I certainly had never seen anything done quite like that before!  I find it a treat to watch scenes like that. 

 

 

Me too! I think that was my favorite thing in the whole episode, I love that kind of stuff. Such a simple deduction but they made it so elegant.

 

Funny, isn't it, how we all have such different tastes and yet still really like the show? They must be doing something right!

 

[sherlockandjohn]

Ooooh, I don't think this has been mentioned yet, but we all recognised the words uttered by Smith, just as Sherlock is about to run out of air, right? "Off you pop". XD

[Inge l-w]

Literally turning the odious Culverton Smith into this version's Moriarty henchman! Delightful!

[bedelia1984]

This is quite sweet, article about Mrs Hudson being a meme.  Just posting here in case it may be sort of mildly spoilery, if not please do move it. Saw some of the fan art on twitter and thought it was great.

[Arcadia]

Ooooh, I don't think this has been mentioned yet, but we all recognised the words uttered by Smith, just as Sherlock is about to run out of air, right? "Off you pop". XD

 

I've haven't understood the connection yet between Smith and Moriarty. Why did Smith reveal the existence of the note? (Or did he, really?) It's all very odd.

[Pseudonym]

The only reason I can see for revealing the note is that Smith wanted to pit himself against Sherlock and be the one to kill him. Get a fake Faith to lure Sherlock in, prove that even though he's not hiding what he is all that well Sherlock still can't catch him, and then get to the point where he can be the one to kill the great Sherlock Holmes... he's like the ultimate victim, what serial killer wouldn't want a crack at him? ;)

 

I think Moriarty just knew about him because he made it his business to know things like that about people and put them in touch with others of a like mind. Remember what Smith said about some people opting to remember what he had told them because they were of a similar mind set? I don't know why Euros bothered to get involved in the whole scheme though, you would think she would be miffed if Smith had killed Sherlock, even if she wants him dead I'd think she'd rather do the honours herself, or at least be there when it happens. Perhaps if she is as intelligent as Mycroft and Sherlock she knew there was no way Smith could outsmart Sherlock, even if he was high, and it was just an amusing little game to play whilst she finished putting her plans into place. 

 

It'll be a bit weird really if she doesn't go after their parents, though I don't think she will.

[J.P.]

Re John.

 

Sorry for the delay, but sneaky Arwel and his twin smilies hijacked my attention for a while.

 

Well, WE have seen it. We have a whole thread about John and his issues. They were hidden in plain sight, because John still looked normal compared to Sherlock's weirdness.

 

Yes, he was a ladies man. He flirts with every woman he can see. He cannot recognize their faces though, like we have seen in ASIB.

 

He needs action, because just being needed - as we assumed - is not exciting enough. So, maybe he is an adrenaline junkie after all.

 

And he has massive problems with anger and aggression. But he is also shown as someone with an iron self control. So he masters his inner Donald Duck most of the time, until it breaks out as snarky remarks (especially in TAB!), or even violence - may it be against a chair, Wiggins, or even Sherlock in ASIB. Once he lets his anger out, it's impossible for him to stop (was there, did that). That's what happens in the morgue, John goes over the top, and all his accumulated anger about Mary's death, and that he himself couldn't prevent it either, that he cannot cope with his grief - his fury explodes and hits Sherlock, because he seems to be the easiest person to blame.

 

I wasn't surprised at all.

[Arcadia]

The only reason I can see for revealing the note is that Smith wanted to pit himself against Sherlock and be the one to kill him. Get a fake Faith to lure Sherlock in, prove that even though he's not hiding what he is all that well Sherlock still can't catch him, and then get to the point where he can be the one to kill the great Sherlock Holmes... he's like the ultimate victim, what serial killer wouldn't want a crack at him? ;)

Oh, of course. Duh. I even figured that out myself on the first viewing, then went and forgot about it. That was another reason I liked this episode; I was able to follow the plot! :D

 

I think Moriarty just knew about him because he made it his business to know things like that about people and put them in touch with others of a like mind. Remember what Smith said about some people opting to remember what he had told them because they were of a similar mind set?

Aha, is that what he was saying? I admit I didn't quite get his point there. Okay then, it all makes sense to me. And I like your theory on why Eurus got involved; she wanted to see Sherlock in action, or get to know him, or something.

 

Also it occurred to me that she approached John first, but apparently didn't get anywhere with him. Or found out what she wanted to know, which was that she couldn't tempt him beyond texting, and moved on to the next step in her plan. Or maybe she got some information about Sherlock out of him. Hopefully we'll find out.

[J.P.]

Certainly not me. I only call her Mary's ghost because I do not find her believable as an inner voice of John's. She's too much exactly like herself and it also comes across as if he's got access to her superior intelligence and insight even though she is no longer actually there, so she seems more like a ghost to me than a part of John's consciousness.

 

Also I think it's obvious that Mary is meant to be John's guilt of not being able to live up to the good man ideal. We see her throughout the episode until John accepts he wants to be the man that Mary thought he was.

 

Re Mary's ghost. To me she was an inner representation of her, but an idealized one. She's so clever, so wise, so forgiving. Johns looks up to her for an emotional advice the same way how Sherlock uses his inner Mycroft. And I see Sherlock saying bye to her, is not that he also sees her, but he acknowledges that John does.

 

But I don't think that John only accepts he wants to be the man that Mary thought he was. He accepts he isn't that man, and that is okay. That's why Sherlock says "even you". Even Johns is just a human being in the end. And I find it so incredibly beautiful coming from Sherlock - another one who tries to live up to impossible standards.

 

 

That's a makeup and lighting issue, I can't fathom why no one involved picked up on it and said something. They pulled off the right appearance for him in the plane scenes in TAB, and he looks like the same old Sherlock in TLD

 

Many people complained about it, and Claire (the make-up artist) was surprised and terryfied herself. I have a little theory. I suspect the problem might be the lighting.

 

As it always was with film, also digital cameras see colors differently than human eye (do you know you can use your digital camera to see a remote control device firing IR rays?) Human eye also much better adjusts to different lighting conditions, also based on our memory about how things suppose to look like. So, if they have used another kind of lamps to add to the blueish tone of TST, rather than leaving it to post production, cameras could react differently to the make-up pigments, and this yellowish tone on Ben's face could be invisible for anyone on set, and appeared on the recorded material first. It's not only Ben, btw, if you look at other faces closely. Ben just needs much more make-up than others so it's more visible.

[sherlockandjohn]

Hope it's okay to post a link to a spoiler-free review of The Final Problem here: http://www.sherlockology.com/news/2017/1/13/final-problem-review1-130117.

 

I will comment more on it later, as I think it is super exciting, but I'm on my mobile phone, so long posts are exhausting.

[Pseudonym]

Twin smilies?