Molly Hooper

[Van Buren Supernova]

Why would they change a word's meaning to something that means opposite?

It's insane.

 

Imo, Sherlock is really uncomfortable at the wedding. I think the lighting at the wedding, the odd way he looks when sitting on the bench and his overall behaviours show that he is fish out of the water in the episode.

Anxiety, saddess and stress are not always visible, but doesn't mean they are not there. Personally, I could never hide my anger but I'm very good at hiding sadness.

[T.o.b.y]

Why would they change a word's meaning to something that means opposite?

It's insane.

 

Imo, Sherlock is really uncomfortable at the wedding. I think the lighting at the wedding, the odd way he looks when sitting on the bench and his overall behaviours show that he is fish out of the water in the episode.

Anxiety, saddess and stress are not always visible, but doesn't mean they are not there. Personally, I could never hide my anger but I'm very good at hiding sadness.

He doesn't appear comfortable to me until it turns into a case. Then he is back in his element :-D

[Boton]

 

Anyway, I just don't think he's ignorant to his behavior.

 

 

Ignorant?  Maybe not.  But I do think that his ability to self-censor his own behavior isn't turned on or operating in real time with what he's doing.  I don't think he, at that moment, has that parallel track that says, "oh, gosh, Molly's expression has changed; her body language has altered; she's hurt."  I think he's completely wrapped up in what he is doing, which is deducing someone and having a grand time at it.

[Boton]

I've always used it as meaning unsure or off-balance.

 

FWIW, I've always used "nonplussed" to mean "slightly annoyed."  I'm from the US Midwest and still live here, for the linguists in the bunch.

[Artemis]

I knew about the "surprised and confused" meaning, but oddly enough I've only ever heard people use it with the "unperturbed" meaning, such as they might use the word "nonchalant".

 

Weird.

[gerry]

 

 

 

Anyway, I just don't think he's ignorant to his behavior.

 

Ignorant? Maybe not. But I do think that his ability to self-censor his own behavior isn't turned on or operating in real time with what he's doing. I don't think he, at that moment, has that parallel track that says, "oh, gosh, Molly's expression has changed; her body language has altered; she's hurt." I think he's completely wrapped up in what he is doing, which is deducing someone and having a grand time at it.

But if you understand what's considered good manners and social standards even if you don't choose to use them, do you need to see the other person's reaction to know whether you should say it? IMO you would know whether you should say it before you say anything. Now whether you say it anyway is a whole other matter because we don't always do what we should do but don't we know ahead of time what the right way to behave is even if we don't behave the right way?

[Boton]

 

 

 

Anyway, I just don't think he's ignorant to his behavior.

Ignorant? Maybe not. But I do think that his ability to self-censor his own behavior isn't turned on or operating in real time with what he's doing. I don't think he, at that moment, has that parallel track that says, "oh, gosh, Molly's expression has changed; her body language has altered; she's hurt." I think he's completely wrapped up in what he is doing, which is deducing someone and having a grand time at it.

But if you understand what's considered good manners and social standards even if you don't choose to use them, do you need to see the other person's reaction to know whether you should say it? IMO you would know whether you should say it before you say anything. Now whether you say it anyway is a whole other matter because we don't always do what we should do but don't we know ahead of time what the right way to behave is even if we don't behave the right way?

 

 

Well, I don't know what to add to my perspective, other than to say I don't think that's how Sherlock's mind works.  I think that's how Mycroft's mind works: learn the social rules and let them guide your behavior (or not, as you see fit). But I think Sherlock can dismiss the information as irrelevant and boring.

 

I think, in situations like with the headmistress and the Janus car wife, he remembers those rules because he uses them to conduct an experiment and measure the reaction.  He doesn't think he needs to "experiment" on Molly, maybe.

 

I would tend to disagree with the idea that knowing the social rules doesn't require seeing the other person's reaction.  In a certain way, I can see myself doing a very much milder version what Sherlock did: Be at a party, look at one of my friends and say, "Oh, all dolled up tonight!  You must be meeting someone special later!" and then see from their embarrassment that I'd overstepped.  That's essentially what Sherlock did, just dialed up to 11.

[gerry]

In a certain way, I can see myself doing a very much milder version what Sherlock did: Be at a party, look at one of my friends and say, "Oh, all dolled up tonight! You must be meeting someone special later!" and then see from their embarrassment that I'd overstepped. That's essentially what Sherlock did, just dialed up to 11.

exactly most of us would notice a friend is dressed up and say, you look nice have a date/holiday plans? Which is sort what lestrade and John did by their reactions. What we will likely never agree on is what Sherlock did... he pointed out how big her lips and breasts looked, what that meant wrt her intentions and how serious her feelings must be. At his age it is completely unbelievable to me that he doesn't know that you don't say things like that under those circumstances. Especially given how he uses social norms to his advantage when it's convenient.

 

More likely he knew he shouldn't be doing it like the vast majority of his deductions but his desire to prove how smart he is was just too strong. The only difference with the xmas deduction is that he went so far over the line that Molly held him accountable for what he said so he had to apologize. Most of the deductees don't hold him accountable for what he says and the manner in which he goes about it.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I agree with you both, because I don't see a whole lot of difference between not knowing any better and getting carried away.  I can be a bit either way myself sometimes.

[sittything]

What I don't understand is if they have no intention of doing Molly/Sherlock in any form romantically because of canon, why not just say that outright like they did about John/Sherlock romance where canon was cited as a reason for the lack of possibility? I guess I don't understand why that feel they need ambiguity.

 

I've been MIA and all of these replies are going to be horribly delayed, but my answer to this is that I don't think it is off the table.  I still don't think it's very likely, I think they left it all vague and ambiguous, but even Cumberbatch said at a panel at a Con earlier this year (after your post) that "... it would have to be Molly, wouldn't it?" in reply to who he could be coupled with.  

[sittything]

 

 

Sometimes I think that they wrote TFP the way they did because they really just wanted an excuse for Sherlock to say ILY to her onscreen, because it reflected what they see as his real inner life, and they wanted to show a small glimpse of that before potentially leaving his character behind for good.

And all too often I think they were just throwing a sop to the Sherlolly fans. :(

 

 

If they were, they could have given us a more consoling sop!

 

I'm available if they want advice on the next one... like Sherlock has to kiss Molly or the villain will blow up Scotland Yard... or they have to go on a romantic holiday to Paris or else an assassin will take out poor Mrs Hudson... or they have to spend the rest of their lives together or else the puppy gets it...

 

 

I feel like this is an extensive list of tropes from all the Sherlolly fan-fics I've ever read.  lol

[Arcadia]

 

What I don't understand is if they have no intention of doing Molly/Sherlock in any form romantically because of canon, why not just say that outright like they did about John/Sherlock romance where canon was cited as a reason for the lack of possibility? I guess I don't understand why that feel they need ambiguity.

 

I've been MIA and all of these replies are going to be horribly delayed, but my answer to this is that I don't think it is off the table.  I still don't think it's very likely, I think they left it all vague and ambiguous, but even Cumberbatch said at a panel at a Con earlier this year (after your post) that "... it would have to be Molly, wouldn't it?" in reply to who he could be coupled with.  

 

 

 

SITTY!!!!!!!! Where ya been, lady? Welcome back!!!!!

 

Yeah, Ben went and revitalized my diminished hopes for Molly to get her dream to come true at last. Dang him.

 

[gerry]

 

 

What I don't understand is if they have no intention of doing Molly/Sherlock in any form romantically because of canon, why not just say that outright like they did about John/Sherlock romance where canon was cited as a reason for the lack of possibility? I guess I don't understand why that feel they need ambiguity.

I've been MIA and all of these replies are going to be horribly delayed, but my answer to this is that I don't think it is off the table. I still don't think it's very likely, I think they left it all vague and ambiguous, but even Cumberbatch said at a panel at a Con earlier this year (after your post) that "... it would have to be Molly, wouldn't it?" in reply to who he could be coupled with.

I haven’t been around in some time because I gave in to my Netflix curiosity but what panel are you referencing? That Cumberbatch quote is news to me. Doesn’t seem like Moffat would agree with him though cuz I’d imagine Moffat would believe Irene’s that person. Interesting though thanks.

[Arcadia]

 

 

What I don't understand is if they have no intention of doing Molly/Sherlock in any form romantically because of canon, why not just say that outright like they did about John/Sherlock romance where canon was cited as a reason for the lack of possibility? I guess I don't understand why that feel they need ambiguity.

I've been MIA and all of these replies are going to be horribly delayed, but my answer to this is that I don't think it is off the table. I still don't think it's very likely, I think they left it all vague and ambiguous, but even Cumberbatch said at a panel at a Con earlier this year (after your post) that "... it would have to be Molly, wouldn't it?" in reply to who he could be coupled with.

I haven’t been around in some time because I gave in to my Netflix curiosity but what panel are you referencing? That Cumberbatch quote is news to me. Doesn’t seem like Moffat would agree with him though cuz I’d imagine Moffat would believe Irene’s that person. Interesting though thanks.

 

 

I found a video of that segment (at London Comicon) ... not very good quality audio but I think  you can make out what he's saying about Molly.

[gerry]

Thanks for the video Arcadia. It’s interesting because the few times I’ve seen BC/SB/MF/LB discuss their characters or relationships I mostly tend to agree with them but the writing doesn’t always seem to have the same vision. Like in that video when BC discusses Irene Adler and he questions whether it was love or lust or obsession. I wonder if Moffat and Gatiss would agree between themselves or with BC with a similar level of ambivalence (not sure if that’s the right descriptive word?) or if they would assign a different meaning or importance to the Irene Adler relationship.

 

One of the shows I watched on Netflix this summer was Breaking Bad and what I really appreciated about that show was the cohesiveness in the writing of each character’s characterization from one episode to the next all the way to the series finale like all of the writers had the same vision and were working towards the same predetermined endgame. There was no need for ambiguity, just their vision of the story/character arcs they were telling. I think for me in Sherlock what the crux of my issue with the writing is I’m not sure there is a similar cohesiveness with wrt to each character’s characterization/relationships from episode to episode. Like Moffat writing Sherlock murdering Magnussen in HLV in serious, dramatic climax and then Gatiss not taking it remotely seriously in T6T.

 

Anyway, back to video clip, I’d agree with sittything that It’s not very likely they would ever write anything definitive about Sherlock and romantic love on this show, with Molly or anyone else.

[sittything]

 

 

What I don't understand is if they have no intention of doing Molly/Sherlock in any form romantically because of canon, why not just say that outright like they did about John/Sherlock romance where canon was cited as a reason for the lack of possibility? I guess I don't understand why that feel they need ambiguity.

 

I've been MIA and all of these replies are going to be horribly delayed, but my answer to this is that I don't think it is off the table.  I still don't think it's very likely, I think they left it all vague and ambiguous, but even Cumberbatch said at a panel at a Con earlier this year (after your post) that "... it would have to be Molly, wouldn't it?" in reply to who he could be coupled with.  

 

 

 

SITTY!!!!!!!! Where ya been, lady? Welcome back!!!!!

 

Yeah, Ben went and revitalized my diminished hopes for Molly to get her dream to come true at last. Dang him.

 

 

I've been around the interwebs... fell into a Walking Dead hole after some post-Season 4 Sherlock ennui.  lol   For whatever reason, maybe my discontent with TWD (The Walking Dead) right now, I've been all about the Sherlock again.   Not sure why b/c who knows if or when we'll ever see Season 5.  

 

But yes, I still can't believe that here we are... my one little ship that I thought had a 1% chance (and that was generous) of ever happening, is no longer something I completely conjured up in my mind.  In a way, if canon never happens, I still think we got a pretty good ending for Sherlock and Molly.  

[Hikari]

 

 

 

What I don't understand is if they have no intention of doing Molly/Sherlock in any form romantically because of canon, why not just say that outright like they did about John/Sherlock romance where canon was cited as a reason for the lack of possibility? I guess I don't understand why that feel they need ambiguity.

 

I've been MIA and all of these replies are going to be horribly delayed, but my answer to this is that I don't think it is off the table.  I still don't think it's very likely, I think they left it all vague and ambiguous, but even Cumberbatch said at a panel at a Con earlier this year (after your post) that "... it would have to be Molly, wouldn't it?" in reply to who he could be coupled with.  

 

 

 

SITTY!!!!!!!! Where ya been, lady? Welcome back!!!!!

 

Yeah, Ben went and revitalized my diminished hopes for Molly to get her dream to come true at last. Dang him.

 

 

I've been around the interwebs... fell into a Walking Dead hole after some post-Season 4 Sherlock ennui.  lol   For whatever reason, maybe my discontent with TWD (The Walking Dead) right now, I've been all about the Sherlock again.   Not sure why b/c who knows if or when we'll ever see Season 5.  

 

But yes, I still can't believe that here we are... my one little ship that I thought had a 1% chance (and that was generous) of ever happening, is no longer something I completely conjured up in my mind.  In a way, if canon never happens, I still think we got a pretty good ending for Sherlock and Molly.  

 

 

Hi, Sitty,

 

I have joined up since you were last here so I'm still getting acquainted with everybody.

 

You are a Sherlolly shipper, I perceive. 

 

Well, it's such a nice idea, those two, and if Sherlock were a tiny bit more normal, I'd say it might even go off.  Molly has earned Sherl's respect, if not his googly romantic feelings (of which he has none--but he's stellar at sniffing out and exploiting the googly feelings of other people, particularly women.  He knows what kind of effect he has on them when he puts on his 'Solicitous Human' mask.  D--- him.)

 

Molly has several things to recommend her as Watson substitute/companion:  She's aces with a microscope and a pipette, for one thing.  Her knowledge of chemistry is the equal of his, and as far as forensic anatomy, she would excel him, I should think, since she's got an advanced degree in pathology and he is just a hobbyist who dropped out of college.  He's at a very high level of skill for an amateur, but she does autopsies for a living and is the official police pathologist.  For a jurisdiction as large and high-profile as the Met, this makes Molly a star in her field.  Her competence is overshadowed by her less confident manner in the social arena, but Molls is stellar at her job.  Sherlock values competence above all, and I think she surprised him with her insights during the day she filled in for John--bit of green-eyed monster poking out, because Molly's crime scene analysis skills match or exceed his own.

 

Molly is also intensely loyal and not above bending the rules in a good cause (ie, Sherlock's cause).  She could have certainly been fired, if not criminally prosecuted, for her role in the Reichenbach cover-up, but I think Molly would be willing to die for her man (of her dreams).  Fudging some paperwork and abusing a cadaver are nothing, if it's helpful to Sherl. 

 

The mark against her is that she cares *too* much for Sherlock and he knows this.  Knows and exploits it, but can't return in kind.  At the best, I would say they will be on a more equitable footing after TFP.  Molly's hero has been shown to have clay feet and she is, if not entirely out of love with him, more objective in assessing his faults.  In her own demure but feisty way, Molly has Sherlock's back as much as John does, more, maybe, since she never stopped adoring him.  But Sherlock is not boyfriend material for someone like Molly, or frankly, anyone.  I cheered when Molls slapped him in HFV because 1.  He had it coming and 2.  The mouse that roared--yay!  She still loves him but she has allowed herself to also be irritated by him and not take his crud unquestioningly.  Were SH to have a 'relationship', I feel that it would only be with someone as dismissive of social niceties and all the relationship stuff as he is.  More so.  SH would only get interested in a woman, if he ever did, who was uninterested in him, or gave the impression she was.  This does not describe Molly.  Molly would lie down on train tracks for Sherl; she'd immolate herself for him.  At least, the Molly we knew until the final episode would have.  She deserves someone attentive and normal, doesn't she?  Somebody like . . .Lestrade . .who is certainly not hard on the eyes and is definitely interested in her and not afraid to show it.  (You can close your mouth now, Inspector).

 

We will always have the Smokin' Sherlolly Kiss in Anderson's Mind Palace, though.  I think Sherlock and Molly are so cute together because Ben and Loo are so cute together.  I could have seen those two as a couple once.

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

Sitty and Gerry -- you're still alive!  Yay!!!    Glad to see you back. 

 

Molly has several things to recommend her as Watson substitute/companion:  She's aces with a microscope and a pipette, for one thing.  Her knowledge of chemistry is the equal of his, and as far as forensic anatomy, she would excel him, I should think, since she's got an advanced degree in pathology and he is just a hobbyist who dropped out of college.

[....]

She deserves someone attentive and normal, doesn't she?  Somebody like . . .Lestrade . .who is certainly not hard on the eyes and is definitely interested in her and not afraid to show it.  (You can close your mouth now, Inspector).

 

Sherlock may or may not have an advanced degree, but she did refer to him (in TSo3) as "a graduate chemist" -- which I'm pretty sure means that he has at least a bachelor's degree in the field.  So apparently not a dropout.

 

As for Molly and Greg -- oh my goodness, yes! 

[Hikari]

Sitty and Gerry -- you're still alive!  Yay!!!    Glad to see you back. 

 

Molly has several things to recommend her as Watson substitute/companion:  She's aces with a microscope and a pipette, for one thing.  Her knowledge of chemistry is the equal of his, and as far as forensic anatomy, she would excel him, I should think, since she's got an advanced degree in pathology and he is just a hobbyist who dropped out of college.

[....]

She deserves someone attentive and normal, doesn't she?  Somebody like . . .Lestrade . .who is certainly not hard on the eyes and is definitely interested in her and not afraid to show it.  (You can close your mouth now, Inspector).

 

Sherlock may or may not have an advanced degree, but she did refer to him (in TSo3) as "a graduate chemist" -- which I'm pretty sure means that he has at least a bachelor's degree in the field.  So apparently not a dropout.

 

As for Molly and Greg -- oh my goodness, yes! 

 

Yeah, after I posted that I realized that I had conflagrated Mofftiss's Holmes and Conan Doyle's Holmes.  Sherlock in Canon attended a university (unspecified, but I prefer Oxford.  I believe that Mycroft is a Cambridge man, since they excel at turning out spies there, and Little Brother would not have wanted to trail behind at the same alma mater) . . but left before obtaining a degree because he was Bored. 

 

Back in the 19th century and maybe even as recently as the 1950s when my dad was coming up, a man could, with the right attitude, work ethic and contacts or sheer luck, make a good career for himself with just the equivalent of a high school diploma.  Not so now.  It's pretty challenging to get a good career with only a B.A. these days.  So of course our 21st century Sherlock would not be accepted as even an unpaid consulting detective without documented grad-level education.  ACD's Holmes was very talented in chemistry, probably enough to actually teach the courses he dropped out of from boredom.  But on the whole it is a bit more comforting if the guy with the test tubes has a Ph.D in Chemistry from a recognized institution and isn't just an autodidact hobbyist. 

[gerry]

Well, it's such a nice idea, those two, and if Sherlock were a tiny bit more normal, I'd say it might even go off. Molly has earned Sherl's respect, if not his googly romantic feelings (of which he has none--but he's stellar at sniffing out and exploiting the googly feelings of other people, particularly women. He knows what kind of effect he has on them when he puts on his 'Solicitous Human' mask. D--- him.).....

 

You went into great deal about all the ways that Molly would address Sherlock’s needs but the problem I’ve always had with this show is I fail to understand how Sherlock would ever address hers at least based on what we’ve seen in the show so I don’t understand why anyone would ship them. I think a romantic relationship would be just as one sided as their friendship.

 

FTR I think it would be the same if you inserted any person in the ship with Sherlock.

[Hikari]

 

Well, it's such a nice idea, those two, and if Sherlock were a tiny bit more normal, I'd say it might even go off. Molly has earned Sherl's respect, if not his googly romantic feelings (of which he has none--but he's stellar at sniffing out and exploiting the googly feelings of other people, particularly women. He knows what kind of effect he has on them when he puts on his 'Solicitous Human' mask. D--- him.).....

You went into great deal about all the ways that Molly would address Sherlock’s needs but the problem I’ve always had with this show is I fail to understand how Sherlock would ever address hers at least based on what we’ve seen in the show so I don’t understand why anyone would ship them. I think a romantic relationship would be just as one sided as their friendship.

 

FTR I think it would be the same if you inserted any person in the ship with Sherlock.

 

 

Gerry,

Thanks for reading my post.

 

As this is the Molly thread, started by a Sherlolly shipper, I was hitting the points as to why people aboard this ship want them to get together.  I never believed these two would be a romantic couple.  What I did say is it would be a nice idea--*if* Sherlock Holmes were normal boyfriend material.  Which he isn't.  You are absolutely right that while Molls would bend over backwards to address *his* need (she gave up her bedroom to him as I recall, because he required another bolthole, not because he wanted to be in her bedroom for the reasons that most guys would want to be in her bedroom.)

 

Molly is a great and loyal person and deserves somebody who can view her for her qualities apart from how she can best serve him in a particular moment.  I would like to think that after events of TFP, Molly was finally able to let go of her hero-worship of SH and accept that he would never be anything other than a professional colleague of sorts--a particularly demanding one--and that she'd stop pining for him and be open to a relationship with a more romantically inclined man.  Somebody like Lestrade, who obviously likes her and is now single, too.  The Sherlolly kiss in TEH was great fun to watch (as was, if I'm honest, the Sheriarty almost-kiss).  But neither has any basis in the singular reality that is Sherlock Holmes's reality.  Reducing the complex relationships between people, in which we can admire or rely on people for all sorts of reasons that have nothing to do with romance to just saying 'Well, these two people obviously want to get it on' is the flaw of this hobby called shipping.  Doesn't mean it's not fun to contemplate--but that's all it is.  The Sherlolly scenario came out of Anderson's mind if we recall, and if Anderson really believed that Sherl had the hots for Molly, it was just a symptom of his incipient insanity. 

 

That said, bravo to Jonathan Aris for a bravura turn in that episode that changed the way we see Anderson for all time.  Under the toolbag exterior, he's a true romantic and one of Sherlock's most devoted fans.  And all that time, we just thought he was a hyper-competitive a$$.

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

The Sherlolly scenario came out of Anderson's mind if we recall, and if Anderson really believed that Sherl had the hots for Molly, it was just a symptom of his incipient insanity.

Or he's actually an old softie, or has the hots for Molly himself (but realizes that she has eyes only for Sherlock), neither of which would necessarily mean that he thinks Sherlock is actual boyfriend material.  (As I recall, his scenario included only that one "triumphant hero" kiss -- please correct me if there was more.)

[Artemis]

Reducing the complex relationships between people, in which we can admire or rely on people for all sorts of reasons that have nothing to do with romance to just saying 'Well, these two people obviously want to get it on' is the flaw of this hobby called shipping.

 

 

 

[J.P.]

Hikari, I don't have enough hands to give you all the "thumbs up" I'd like for this line. I may even get it tattooed on my forehead. :D

[gerry]

As this is the Molly thread, started by a Sherlolly shipper, I was hitting the points as to why people aboard this ship want them to get together. ....

 

Molly is a great and loyal person and deserves somebody who can view her for her qualities apart from how she can best serve him in a particular moment....

 

I would like to think that after events of TFP, Molly was finally able to let go of her hero-worship of SH and accept that he would never be anything other than a professional colleague of sorts--a particularly demanding one--and that she'd stop pining for him and be open to a relationship with a more romantically inclined man....

 

Somebody like Lestrade, who obviously likes her and is now single, too.

The first two points are the crux of my shipper question. If you’re a Molly fan, what’s the appeal of a sherlolly ship because I’m not sure what she would get out of it? I can understand it if you’re more a Sherlock fan and Molly just fills a generic romantic girlfriend role or is it that a shipper imagines Sherlock currently is or will be boyfriend material? Or is more like a fan ficy thing that is just making up something that appeals to you like the slash fan fiction which has no real basis in the actual events/characterizations of the show?

 

Where I do disagree with you is that I haven’t seen hero worship from Molly post Sherlock fake death. Like at the beginning of the ILY when she didn’t answer the phone right away and wasn’t eager to talk to him. Pining or hoping for more, yes, but she seems to have a more realistic view of him in series 3 and 4. Unfortunately it hasn’t made her want to move on from him romantically which has always been disappointing to me.

 

Is shipping Lestrade/Molly simply because both happen to be single? If that’s the only criteria why not Mrs. Hudson/Lestrade or John/Molly or Mrs. H/John? Can’t men and women just be friends? It seems even for the crime shows I watch there’s always some faction of the fandom that wants to pair/ship the female regular with one of the male regulars. It’s a phenomenon that both fascinates and confounds me. Of course, there are times the potential onscreen pairings seem organic based on the characters and actor chemistry and other times it just seems like putting the characters together for the sake of it.