What about Sherlock's feelings for Molly?

[Inge l-w]

First of all, Molly isn't even supposed to be there! But, given that she has gained ground over S2 and S3, we can safely assume his favourite pathologist will continue having a place in his heart and his mind, just not a romantically attached one.

Second, Molly is the one he trusts with his innermost secrets, so he definitely sees her as an ally and a "colleague", even a partner in crime, given TRF, where she had to falsify papers and keep the truth even from Dr Watson. So, when he offers to share a murder scene investigation with her in TEH, it is the highest accolade which lies in his power to bestow. And throughout the series, so far, she gets the most ever so slight kisses on the cheek ( Christmas in SiB and definitely in TEH)!

[sfmpco]

Molly is canon now.  Oh yeah!

[Arcadia]

I still think Sherlock's just a bit too old-fashioned; he ignores Molly because she's a woman, because he thinks all women, even (especially??) the smart ones, are distractions, and all distractions are annoying, and he'd just as soon do without them. It's only when he starts to see Molly as a real person, and not one of those alien woman things, that he begins to treat her like ... well, a person.

[T.o.b.y]

I think Sherlock knew perfectly well when Molly was trying to flirt or make advances and deliberately pretended to be oblivious because he didn't want to deal with all that except when it was convenient for him to use her crush to his advantage. In series one especially, I got the impression that having people hit on him was disconcerting and he tried to nip any chance of romance in the bud. He seemed very relieved when John assured him wasn't interested in that kind of relationship.

[Inge l-w]

Molly will never be canon! Only as far as this particular series is concerned! In about seventy-five years from now, if the planet is still functioning reasonably well as a civilised society, Sherlock Holmes fans will be celebrating his two-hundredth birthday, enjoying all the films and series in whatever digital or even more advanced medium will be available, and this series will be just one more addition to the sum total! There may be research done on the strange woman pathologist who figured in BBC Sherlock series, learned discussions held about her overall contribution to this phenomenon, as it will have become by then, fan fiction of the time read and researched for sociological or cultural studies of the position of woman in Western society in the early twenty-first century, and that will be all!

[sfmpco]

Sorry to burst your little ACD bubble, but anything in BBC SHERLOCK is new canon and new fodder for any future version of Sherlock.  I assure you ACD would have cared less what you did with the detective because he had already divorced himself from caring about the character he invented.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

True, when he was contacted by people wanting to write plays and such he basically told them that they marry him off or murder him for all he cared. As for a woman pathologist, Doyle attended the Edinburgh school of medicine at a time when women were just being admitted so who knows. If he hadn't become disenchanted with Holmes, it might have happened. He was a man of his times but he was a bit ahead as well. I think Molly will be around for a long time now. And who knows, maybe future adaptations might pick up on it as well. We can only hope so.

[sittything]

I'm just glad Moffat ships it, even if he never lets it happen (which he said it won't).  I feel some level of solidarity with him for that... 

 

[Inge l-w]

Define canon! See how far you get from William Gillette, to the Stoll film collection, to Rathbone, to all the Sherlock films. Benedict himself is Sherlock incarnation 72. The one in Elementary is 73, and Mr Holmes, aged ninety-odd will be incarnation 74 pretty soon, and so on and so forth. And no one forget Dr Dorothy Reed, a pioneer pathologist in Johns Hopkins University, but still too young by ACD's chronology. I hardly see how Messers. Moffat and Gatiss are creating new canon, they are just adding their worthwhile contribution to the legend.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

And legends always grow with the retelling. There is no reason for the women that Moffat and Gatiss have brought to it to disappear. Cosplayers are adding female Sherlock and Watson's. The newer generation coming up and adding their two cents worth and they are the ones who will carry it on. So more power to them and wish them well and God speed.

[sfmpco]

There's an entire series of books out right now where Sherlock is married. Published books.  PUBLISHED.

[T.o.b.y]

Define canon! See how far you get from William Gillette, to the Stoll film collection, to Rathbone, to all the Sherlock films. Benedict himself is Sherlock incarnation 72. The one in Elementary is 73, and Mr Holmes, aged ninety-odd will be incarnation 74 pretty soon, and so on and so forth. And no one forget Dr Dorothy Reed, a pioneer pathologist in Johns Hopkins University, but still too young by ACD's chronology. I hardly see how Messers. Moffat and Gatiss are creating new canon, they are just adding their worthwhile contribution to the legend.

I suppose it depends on one's understanding of canon. I tend to give that name to all information about the character which we get directly from the Doyle stories, things like "Mycroft is Sherlock's brother" or "In his later years, he studied bees". Of course Doyle himself was not always consistent (for example, Watson's war injury moved around) and, as has been mentioned around here before, reportedly couldn't care less what adaptations did with his creation.

 

I suppose you can look upon all published works featuring Sherlock Holmes as creating one big canon, as opposed to the fanon created by fan fiction. In that case, you run into even more contradiction, though.

 

Or you can say every version has its own canon. If so, then Molly is canon for BBC Sherlock, as opposed to a character invented by a fan author.

 

Does it really matter that much? Molly is here now, she is lovely and Sherlock clearly likes her. That's enough for me at the moment...

[Inge l-w]

Canon is 56 stories and four novels featuring the same fictional character from late Victorian to early Georgian days.

[Inge l-w]

Everything else, as someone pointed out above, is add-on. Apart from Molly, does anyone think that Irene will remain a dominatrix just because Mr Moffat wrote her character as one?

As for publishing, once the copyright expires, one is perfectly entitled to publish anything, and if they are good detective stories, so much the better!

[sfmpco]

And they become new canon.

[Inge l-w]

Wishful thinking.

[Caya]

It might be helpful to differentiate between Sherlock Holmes canon (that is, ACD or universal canon) and BBC Sherlock canon. Molly is definitely part of the latter but not of the former. If one is prepared to accept any and all material ever published about Sherlock Holmes as universal canon, things might become confusing very, very quickly (but more power to you if you do). For instance, I don't watch Elementary but I understand that John Watson is Joan Watson there, which, if accepted as canon, offers some confusing contradictions to ACD's work (although, admittedly, Rex Stout would be vindicated ;)).

[Carol the Dabbler]

Thanks, Martina, I had forgotten about Stout's article!  (For those not familiar with the name, he wrote the Nero Wolfe detective stories.)

 

I don't think that Moftiss ever intended for their maxim that "everything is canon" to be taken literally.  They clearly give top honors to Conan Doyle.  But they have also given themselves permission to "borrow" bits and pieces from various adaptations of his work, as well as developing some of their own details.

 

So "canon" (with no qualifying adjective) would be Conan Doyle's stories.  Beyond that, each adaptation has its own internal canon (e.g., in Sherlock canon, Holmes has a pathologist friend named Molly Hooper; in Elementary canon, Watson is a woman named Joan, and so forth).

 

[Inge l-w]

WOW! That is a first! Two moderators agreeing on the subject must be unique! Ladies, have a each for your patience and forbearance! Talk about teenagers in another thread! We're all behaving like especially unruly ones, it seems to me! Nero Wolfe was supposed to be Sherlock's offspring by Irene Adler, but it was Dorothy L. Sayers who did a very thorough job too: we have her to thank for his birthdate, his full name and his prior connections before Dr Watson.

As for that article, the celebrated crime novelist did not take account of the Stockbroker's Clerk story, nor of The Red Circle or The three Garridebs, but such is literary criticism!

[jadpdr]

As far as I am concerned, the ACD stories I read to improve my English, are canon. The rest is just any creator's take on the iconic character.

[Carol the Dabbler]

As for that article, the celebrated crime novelist did not take account of the Stockbroker's Clerk story, nor of The Red Circle or The three Garridebs, but such is literary criticism!

 

I don't believe Stout meant the article to be taken seriously.  ;)

[Godolphin]

I still think Sherlock's just a bit too old-fashioned; he ignores Molly because she's a woman, because he thinks all women, even (especially??) the smart ones, are distractions, and all distractions are annoying, and he'd just as soon do without them. It's only when he starts to see Molly as a real person, and not one of those alien woman things, that he begins to treat her like ... well, a person.

 

With respect, I disagree.

 

He thinks romance is an annoying distraction, but Sherlock is far too intelligent to harbor outdated views that women themselves are distractions. He'd be fully aware of all of the cognitive research that has proven that women's brains are not inherently inferior to men's, and that effective education can all but eliminate any alleged inborn differences.

 

Put simply, Sherlock is not one to make lazy assumptions, particularly not lazy assumptions based on outdated Victorian "science." 

 

Adhering to an erroneous view of all women as distractions would be, in its own way, a form of sentiment, which he recognizes is a weakness.

[Inge l-w]

Dear Godolphin,

You start with the false premise of modern Sherlock as a separate entity from his scriptwriter, who in this case was Mr Moffat, always ready to play tricks with the actors (his toys, and he does like to break them) the audience , and write a good line just for laughs!

[Arcadia]

 

I still think Sherlock's just a bit too old-fashioned; he ignores Molly because she's a woman, because he thinks all women, even (especially??) the smart ones, are distractions, and all distractions are annoying, and he'd just as soon do without them. It's only when he starts to see Molly as a real person, and not one of those alien woman things, that he begins to treat her like ... well, a person.

 

With respect, I disagree.

 

He thinks romance is an annoying distraction, but Sherlock is far too intelligent to harbor outdated views that women themselves are distractions. He'd be fully aware of all of the cognitive research that has proven that women's brains are not inherently inferior to men's, and that effective education can all but eliminate any alleged inborn differences.

 

Put simply, Sherlock is not one to make lazy assumptions, particularly not lazy assumptions based on outdated Victorian "science." 

 

Adhering to an erroneous view of all women as distractions would be, in its own way, a form of sentiment, which he recognizes is a weakness.

 

Well, that's a good take on it too. I was careful not to say that Sherlock found women inferior, however; I don't think he does. He just seems to think of them as off limits because they will interfere with his work. And a lot of modern men still have trouble seeing women as "just people" -- they still see gender first, and are simply more comfortable around other men. It doesn't necessarily mean bias, and it's certainly not exclusive to men. But it IS a little old-fashioned, no?

 

His attitude is really rather gentlemanly ... which is also rather old-fashioned!

[Godolphin]

 

 

I still think Sherlock's just a bit too old-fashioned; he ignores Molly because she's a woman, because he thinks all women, even (especially??) the smart ones, are distractions, and all distractions are annoying, and he'd just as soon do without them. It's only when he starts to see Molly as a real person, and not one of those alien woman things, that he begins to treat her like ... well, a person.

 

With respect, I disagree.

 

He thinks romance is an annoying distraction, but Sherlock is far too intelligent to harbor outdated views that women themselves are distractions. He'd be fully aware of all of the cognitive research that has proven that women's brains are not inherently inferior to men's, and that effective education can all but eliminate any alleged inborn differences.

 

Put simply, Sherlock is not one to make lazy assumptions, particularly not lazy assumptions based on outdated Victorian "science." 

 

Adhering to an erroneous view of all women as distractions would be, in its own way, a form of sentiment, which he recognizes is a weakness.

 

Well, that's a good take on it too. I was careful not to say that Sherlock found women inferior, however; I don't think he does. He just seems to think of them as off limits because they will interfere with his work. And a lot of modern men still have trouble seeing women as "just people" -- they still see gender first, and are simply more comfortable around other men. It doesn't necessarily mean bias, and it's certainly not exclusive to men. But it IS a little old-fashioned, no?

 

His attitude is really rather gentlemanly ... which is also rather old-fashioned!

 

Hey Arcadia,

 

There is indeed something old-fashioned about Sherlock -- particularly how he dresses. I can't imagine seeing him in trackies! Or spandex!   It just wouldn't be Sherlock.

 

But what I also enjoy about the latest iteration of Sherlock is how artfully it's been updated. No cobblestone streets and hansom cabs, but the Tube and the Gherkin. A cell-phone addicted Sherlock who knows where a good Chinese restaurant or fish & chips place are. I think it's rubbed off nicely on Sherlock's character, too. He's true to the ACD original, but has been polished up a bit so he fits in the 21st century.

 

I'm really biting my lip here about the gentlemanly bit....okay....I'll concede that he has his gallant moments...but he's also an arse (and has described himself in like terms).  :D

 

Cheers!