Episode 4.3 "The Final Problem"

[Pseudonym]

I don't mean her sending people out in her stead to arrange meetings I mean her personally going out. 

[Surelock]

Probably not because I don't think she started going out until she had brainwashed everyone in Sherrinford and I think it took her a few years to do that.

[Arcadia]

Surelock, I believe you had trouble with your post because you ran afoul of our "bad words" filter, which has odd ideas about what we shouldn't be allowed to see. Your "offending" phrase is the word "glass" plus the word "sex" ... put those two together, and you trigger the "forbidden words" warning. So in order to make your post, you would have had to change one of those words, or misspelled one, or something like that. Yes, it's a pain.

 

I'm off to update the forbidden words list ...

[Carol the Dabbler]

Surelock, I believe you had trouble with your post because you ran afoul of our "bad words" filter, which has odd ideas about what we shouldn't be allowed to see.

Just to be perfectly clear, it appears that "gl@ss sex" was taken as a reference to gl@ss sex toys, which triggered the software's spam-words filter -- in other words, it thinks you're trying to sell sex toys via the forum. As long as that's not the case, the staff doesn't care whether you use the term, but we're unable to turn off the spam-words filter. That's why we advise you to simply misspell the term, thus circumventing the filter.

 

The software also has a more conventional "bad words" filter, which won't let you use the sort of words that used to get your mouth washed out with soap. The staff agrees with the software in this case, so please don't try to get around that filter with creative spelling.

[Redbeard]

It's hard for me to believe that Eurus and Moriarty only met once for five minutes...he seems to have had more of an influence on her than that.  To me, it seemed like he must have told her all about the events of the Great Game, otherwise the similar tactic of devising timed puzzles for Sherlock to solve is too much of a coincidence.  I think he explained all about how he toyed with Sherlock, how Sherlock cared more about solving the puzzle than saving the person, etc.  That would have given Eurus the idea to test him as well, this time using people he actually did care about to see how he would react then.  I think Moriarty might also have told her the only time Sherlock seemed to care about the victims, was when the voice on the other end was that of a little girl (to me, Sherlock did seem panicked when he was running out of time to solve the clue in the painting, with the little girl counting down on the other end of the phone.  He did seem to really care about that one).  Which would explain why she chose that angle to kind of "up the ante" on Sherlock's emotions using the girl on the plane, and would also explain why the Final Problem begins with a phone call from Moriarty..he is her call to action, her first human contact that takes her away from all the dead/sleeping souls around her and sets her on the road to something interesting.   It seems too much of a connection for just five mintues.  I actually think Moriarty probably had quite a profound affect on her. 

[Pseudonym]

I agree. 

 

It also would have been so much better if the girl on the plane was real rather than a pointless metaphor/ Eurus' imagination. 

[Artemis]

I think Moriarty might also have told her the only time Sherlock seemed to care about the victims, was when the voice on the other end was that of a little girl (to me, Sherlock did seem panicked when he was running out of time to solve the clue in the painting, with the little girl counting down on the other end of the phone. He did seem to really care about that one).

Just FYI, the child on the phone during the painting scene was a boy.

[J.P.]

Louis Moffat (in his first appearance in Sherlock), to be precise.

[Surelock]

It's hard for me to believe that Eurus and Moriarty only met once for five minutes...he seems to have had more of an influence on her than that.  To me, it seemed like he must have told her all about the events of the Great Game, otherwise the similar tactic of devising timed puzzles for Sherlock to solve is too much of a coincidence.  I think he explained all about how he toyed with Sherlock, how Sherlock cared more about solving the puzzle than saving the person, etc.  That would have given Eurus the idea to test him as well, this time using people he actually did care about to see how he would react then.  I think Moriarty might also have told her the only time Sherlock seemed to care about the victims, was when the voice on the other end was that of a little girl (to me, Sherlock did seem panicked when he was running out of time to solve the clue in the painting, with the little girl counting down on the other end of the phone.  He did seem to really care about that one).  Which would explain why she chose that angle to kind of "up the ante" on Sherlock's emotions using the girl on the plane, and would also explain why the Final Problem begins with a phone call from Moriarty..he is her call to action, her first human contact that takes her away from all the dead/sleeping souls around her and sets her on the road to something interesting.   It seems too much of a connection for just five mintues.  I actually think Moriarty probably had quite a profound affect on her. 

 

Why couldn't Euros find out about all this stuff later? I mean Euros had brainwashed people that were working up to MI6. There are obviously records of previous cases of Sherlock. It wouldn't be difficult for Euros to get her hands on them considering she had mind control powers.

 

I think the only reason which can suggest that Euros meet Moriarty again is if she had some kind of information about Sherlock that only Moriarty could provide her.

 

I don't think anything you listed seems to be in that category for the following reasons:

 

1. Sherlock was working with Lestrade during the events of The Great Game. The police would obviously have records on what happened. 

 

2. How would Moriarty know that Sherlock cared more about solving the puzzle than saving the person? I thought only John knew that. Wasn't Moriarty the one who saw through Sherlock's act and realised Sherlock actually had a heart of gold?

 

3. Once again why couldn't Euros just check police records?

 

Euros' mind control powers make her pretty omniscient. She doesn't really need to go to people for information when she can just brainwash someone else to go do it for her.

[Pseudonym]

Oh God, Moffat's son again?! If you're not related to someone on the show seems you get a tough time being in it!

 

How do you know she had brainwashed people in MI6? We don't know Sherrinford is run by MI6. 

 

I don't think anyone has ever thought Sherlock had a heart of gold. 

 

Unrelated, but really Sherlock's arc is unrealistic in the way he suddenly understands people. In the first two seasons there were times that he wasn't being deliberately cruel but he just didn't realise what he was doing was wrong. His emotional development I'm fine with - he realises people are important now and he wants to connect, but that desire wouldn't suddenly make him able to understand social cues that he was previously incapable of picking up on. Having friends doesn't change your wiring. He might have gotten better at mimicking it because he cares more but we're meant to believe he genuinely doesn't have issues with it now. As much as I like the whole 'not good?' thing I can see why he doesn't do that anymore but I'd be nice to still see a level of social clumsiness from him. 

 

I had another point but I've forgotten it. Hm. 

[Arcadia]

I always suspected Sherlock somewhat exaggerated his "cluelessness" just to see if he could get away with it. Because when it could get him what he wanted, he could be pretty adept at interpreting social cues. But he likes shocking people; he gets more honest reactions from them that way, maybe.

 

Anyway, that's another reason I wouldn't mind another season; just curious to see how much he's progressed. I'll bet he can still be pretty cold and cutting if he puts his mind to it. Or takes his mind off of it, as the  case may be.

[Pseudonym]

I don't know, that comment about the woman in pink and wondering why she would still be thinking about her stillborn daughter - he seemed genuinely confused why everyone else thought that was a horrifying thing to say. That's the type of thing I mean, where he just blunders through things and it doesn't even occur to him it might be offensive.

[Surelock]

 

How do you know she had brainwashed people in MI6? We don't know Sherrinford is run by MI6. 

 

I don't think anyone has ever thought Sherlock had a heart of gold. 

 

Okay, fair point. We don't know if Sherrinford is run by MI6 but we do know that it won't be difficult for Sherrinford to contact MI6 and send their personnel to Sherrinford's HQ. Then Euros could easily brainwash whatever MI6 agent is sent and then use them to gain information.

 

By Sherlock having a heart of gold I'm referring to how John always said that Sherlock loves playing the hero. Moriarty recognised this early on in The Great Game:

http://arianedevere.livejournal.com/45923.html

 

JIM: I’ll burn the heart out of you. 

(His face is a snarl as he says the word ‘heart’ but at the end of the sentence he looks almost regretful.) 

SHERLOCK (softly): I have been reliably informed that I don’t have one. 

JIM: But we both know that’s not quite true.

 

 

 

Unrelated, but really Sherlock's arc is unrealistic in the way he suddenly understands people. In the first two seasons there were times that he wasn't being deliberately cruel but he just didn't realise what he was doing was wrong. His emotional development I'm fine with - he realises people are important now and he wants to connect, but that desire wouldn't suddenly make him able to understand social cues that he was previously incapable of picking up on. Having friends doesn't change your wiring. He might have gotten better at mimicking it because he cares more but we're meant to believe he genuinely doesn't have issues with it now. As much as I like the whole 'not good?' thing I can see why he doesn't do that anymore but I'd be nice to still see a level of social clumsiness from him. 

 

I do find some of Sherlock's social deductions (for lack of a better word) to be inconsistent.

 

I think the best example of this would be how Sherlock behaved when he first met John along with Mary after his 2 year absence in The Empty Hearse. Sherlock couldn't tell that John would be upset over him faking his death because apparently Sherlock doesn't know anything about human nature. On the other hand, Sherlock could tell that Mary didn't like John's mustache by just looking at her.

[Arcadia]

I don't know, that comment about the woman in pink and wondering why she would still be thinking about her stillborn daughter - he seemed genuinely confused why everyone else thought that was a horrifying thing to say. That's the type of thing I mean, where he just blunders through things and it doesn't even occur to him it might be offensive.

 

Ah, but it did occur to him it might be offensive! That's why he asked John if it was "not good." But I agree that he was freewheeling through his ideas without regard to how it might affect other people, and was caught up short by the sudden silence in the room. Solving the mystery was more important to him than protecting the delicate sensibilities of everyone else. I'm guessing that over time he figured out he could do both at once, and it would actually help him in his work. That's Moftisses point, anyway; being more empathic and socially adept actually will help make him a better detective.

[Pseudonym]

I don't think it would have occurred to him though if he hadn't seen everyone else's reactions. He notices everyone else looking at him horrified, but seems to have little idea why which is why he checks with John whether he's just said something bad or not. 

 

There's a difference between having a heart and having a heart of gold. And Sherlock playing the hero read to me that he liked being dramatic and swooping in with the answers rather than he was doing it because he actually cared. It's about the puzzles not the people (obviously excluding the personal cases of S4). 

[Redbeard]

By the way, I think Eurus's "mind control" and "brain washing" powers seem to be vastly overstated.  If it was that easy for her,  she'd be ruling the world lol.  It kind of reminds me of the "Jedi mind trick" in Star Wars, that only works on "the weak minded".  I don't think Eurus is that all-powerful.  

[Redbeard]

 

I think Moriarty might also have told her the only time Sherlock seemed to care about the victims, was when the voice on the other end was that of a little girl (to me, Sherlock did seem panicked when he was running out of time to solve the clue in the painting, with the little girl counting down on the other end of the phone. He did seem to really care about that one).

Just FYI, the child on the phone during the painting scene was a boy.

 

 

Oops my mistake!  Thanks for letting me know.  

 

Also, J.P., thanks for the info that it was the little Moffat boy lol.  I had no idea!  Cool. 

[Pseudonym]

'The little Moffat boy' sounds like it should be a nursery rhyme :D

[gerry]

I do find some of Sherlock's social deductions (for lack of a better word) to be inconsistent.

 

I think the best example of this would be how Sherlock behaved when he first met John along with Mary after his 2 year absence in The Empty Hearse. Sherlock couldn't tell that John would be upset over him faking his death because apparently Sherlock doesn't know anything about human nature. On the other hand, Sherlock could tell that Mary didn't like John's mustache by just looking at her.

It's probably just me but I always just thought Sherlock was guessing that Mary didn't like the mustache, hoping to irritate John and diffuse the how angry John was at him. He was needling John from the restaurant on.

[Pseudonym]

I don't think many women would like that moustache so maybe not much of a leap ;)

[gerry]

Exactly, I just never considered it much of a deduction.

[Arcadia]

I don't think it would have occurred to him though if he hadn't seen everyone else's reactions. He notices everyone else looking at him horrified, but seems to have little idea why which is why he checks with John whether he's just said something bad or not. 

 

There's a difference between having a heart and having a heart of gold. And Sherlock playing the hero read to me that he liked being dramatic and swooping in with the answers rather than he was doing it because he actually cared. It's about the puzzles not the people (obviously excluding the personal cases of S4). 

 

Oh, I don't disagree with that, I just don't think he's quite as clueless as he claims to be; I think it's partly an act.

 

'The little Moffat boy' sounds like it should be a nursery rhyme :D

 

Little boy Moffat

Sat on a toffat

Eating his curds and whey.....

[sfmpco]

It is what it is.

 

http://www.blastr.com/2017-2-21/mark-gattis-hints-sherlock-might-officially-be-done

[Fantasy Lover]

And what it is, is $hit.

[J.P.]

In defense of Louis: I remember that he wanted the part of little Sherlock, but Steven told him there are more candidates, and that he won't help him in getting it. IMO he was okay.

 

 

I do find some of Sherlock's social deductions (for lack of a better word) to be inconsistent.

 

I think the best example of this would be how Sherlock behaved when he first met John along with Mary after his 2 year absence in The Empty Hearse. Sherlock couldn't tell that John would be upset over him faking his death because apparently Sherlock doesn't know anything about human nature. On the other hand, Sherlock could tell that Mary didn't like John's mustache by just looking at her.

 

IMO it's noticing details and reactions vs. understanding a bigger picture. AND the moustache thing was between Mary and John and easily to observe, while Sherlock's return was between him and John. Sherlock was so preoccupied with his own idea of how the reunion would look like, that the actual situation was too much to cope.

Happened to me thousands of times.